Les Ombres d'Esteren - Forum officiel

Hullo, folks,

I've been considering adding the following new Disadvantage to the game. Thoughts and comments would be appreciated.

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Dark Secret (20 or 40 pts.)
Due to some circumstance that occurred earlier in the character's life, your character has some sort of shameful secret that would either be extremely embarrassing if it came to light, or worse yet, the secret would cause the character to face legal punishment and even ostracism among those who live around him. (In the case of facing legal punishment or ostracism, the point bonus to the character should be the higher one.) As a result, he will do anything and everything possible to keep his secret hidden.

While this Disadvantage may be more suitable to non-player characters, the Game Leader should allow player characters to take this Disadvantage at her discretion.

If the GL allows a player to take Dark Secret as a Disadvantage, both the GL and the player have to agree on what the Dark Secret is, whether it is minor (worth 20 pts.) or major (worth 40 pts.), what it's effects are, and the possible consequences on the character. This should all be incorporated into the player character's History.
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So, what do folks think?

I think I want to play L5R again .
Seriously this disadvantage is suitable and interesting in any rolegame.
I think's it's just important that one player may not be a too obvious threat for his mate with this kind of disadvantage.

Well, it's a good idea I think, but I would add more pressure on the PC, to make this a real disadvantage.

For instance, your secret is known by all the Tarish community. You are considered as the pet peeve, black sheep or similar. Every time you face them, you flee because of the shame you're feeling deep inside.

To me, having a disadvantage is something that is disconnected to the purpose of the adventures. It is a role play supplement.
There is a thread in the french section where the disadvantage "personal ennemy" is discussed. The reason is because everybody wants this feat. It just creates more and more adventures. It's basically granted, giving easy 40pts to players.

"Dark secret" should avoid this issue. It should be easy to understand and apply during the games.
Other possibilities may be that 1 person is following the PC that make him pay for what he has done (to his brother/ father etc), the PC is psychotic (remember dexter, the serie?) and depraved in some sort (must go to brothels everyday) anything that is morally deviant.

To such extends, the disadvantage bonus should be about 50pts, I guess, as per the "weakling" feat (don't know how it's been translated)

just some thoughts

Hullo, Deorman,

Deorman a écrit :I think I want to play L5R again .

Umm... pourquoi?

Deorman a écrit : Seriously this disadvantage is suitable and interesting in any rolegame.

Yes, I agree. And that's why I was surprised that it wasn't included in the game.

Deorman a écrit : I think's it's just important that one player may not be a too obvious threat for his mate with this kind of disadvantage.

Part of the key with Dark Secret, I think, is to have the player and GL consult on this, and make sure that the secret can be played out in the game with some degree of leeway, so that the GL would disallow it if it were to make things too...difficult for the player and his or her relationship with the other characters. The Dark Secret is more about something the player character has to keep secret from the other players, and can be as serious or as non-serious as desired.

What do you think of the bonus points that I've set up for it? Good or bad?

Hullo, Daïn,

Daïn a écrit :Well, it's a good idea I think, but I would add more pressure on the PC, to make this a real disadvantage.

For instance, your secret is known by all the Tarish community. You are considered as the pet peeve, black sheep or similar. Every time you face them, you flee because of the shame you're feeling deep inside.

I think that having this sort of thing is a built-in part of the Dark Secret, and that it's up to the player and GL to write something along these lines into the History section of the character, based on the secret. Bear in mind, a lot of this will have to do with the Dark Secret in question.

Daïn a écrit : To me, having a disadvantage is something that is disconnected to the purpose of the adventures. It is a role play supplement.

I agree with you about this. The key is that each Dark Secret will have to be adjudicated separately, and how it affects the character in question.

Daïn a écrit : There is a thread in the french section where the disadvantage "personal ennemy" is discussed. The reason is because everybody wants this feat. It just creates more and more adventures. It's basically granted, giving easy 40pts to players.

"Dark secret" should avoid this issue. It should be easy to understand and apply during the games.
Other possibilities may be that 1 person is following the PC that make him pay for what he has done (to his brother/ father etc), the PC is psychotic (remember dexter, the serie?) and depraved in some sort (must go to brothels everyday) anything that is morally deviant.

Yes, I read the French thread about the Enemy business. I think that when it comes down to it, certain Advantages and Disadvantages are going to be taken more often than not, simply because of what they give or cost, and because some of these Advantages/Disadvantages are worth more or less to players and their characters.

As for the Dark Secret, the player and GL both have to agree on the secret, what it's effects are and all of that when the player decides to take it. The consequences of the Dark Secret depend on the secret, and that influences how much it's worth. Hence the 20 pts for a "minor" secret and 40 pts for a "major" one.

Daïn a écrit : To such extends, the disadvantage bonus should be about 50pts, I guess, as per the "weakling" feat (don't know how it's been translated)

Actually, the Strong Advantage is worth 40 points, but as per the rules noted in the section on Disadvantages, the Weakling Disadvantage would only be worth 30 points.

Insofar as the value of the Dark Secret, I don't think it should be that high. I don't see one in the rulebook that is worth 50 points, though it's possible that there are other game supplements in French that offer new Advantages or Disadvantages that are worth more than 40 points.

Thanks for the comments, mon ami. Much appreciated. And I'm going to make an addition to the text of the Dark Secret write-up now.

JohnK a écrit :

Daïn a écrit : To such extends, the disadvantage bonus should be about 50pts, I guess, as per the "weakling" feat (don't know how it's been translated)

Actually, the Strong Advantage is worth 40 points, but as per the rules noted in the section on Disadvantages, the Weakling Disadvantage would only be worth 30 points.

I think he was talking about the Disadvantage that is the opposite of "Colossus", not of "Strong". "Waek" is indeed worth 30 points, but "Weakling" (-2 to every strength-related roll) would bring 50 to the Player.


Back to the main topic at hand: in my opinion, "Dark Secret" would not be such a good Disadvantage to implement to Shadows of Esteren. Should a PC want to include such a skeleton in the closet, it should not bring him any additional points; it should just be part of his background and of his Character's personality.

The rationale behind this is that for me, Advantages et Disadvantages should really be something that bring a clear modification to the PC in himself, like "Unlucky", "Trauma" or "Keen Hearing" do. Of course, I know there already are such traits like "Enemy" or "Mentor", but I think it should be restricted to that; no need to put an Advantage / Disadvantage for each special thing about the Character. Otherwise, you can very quickly find Disadvantages such as "Odd Quirk", "Greedy", or "Xenophobic", that are hard to enforce by the GL and would tend to bring free points to the PC.

Of course, as usual, it is only my personal idea on the subject.

Hullo, Clovis,

Clovis a écrit :

JohnK a écrit :

Daïn a écrit : To such extends, the disadvantage bonus should be about 50pts, I guess, as per the "weakling" feat (don't know how it's been translated)

Actually, the Strong Advantage is worth 40 points, but as per the rules noted in the section on Disadvantages, the Weakling Disadvantage would only be worth 30 points.

I think he was talking about the Disadvantage that is the opposite of "Colossus", not of "Strong". "Waek" is indeed worth 30 points, but "Weakling" (-2 to every strength-related roll) would bring 50 to the Player.

Hmm, you could be right about this, Clovis. That he was talking about Colossus, I mean. But the rules clearly state that the taking of the Strong advantage twice, meaning the Colossus costs the player 60 points, not 50. (See the top paragraph under Physical or Mental Advantage (variable cost) on page 213.) As noted on page 214, for the Weakling, that gives you the same 50 points that you would get for normally doubling that Disadvantage.

Clovis a écrit : Back to the main topic at hand: in my opinion, "Dark Secret" would not be such a good Disadvantage to implement to Shadows of Esteren. Should a PC want to include such a skeleton in the closet, it should not bring him any additional points; it should just be part of his background and of his Character's personality.

I don't know whether I agree with this, Clovis. I'll address this a bit more in the second part after the next quoted section.

Clovis a écrit : The rationale behind this is that for me, Advantages et Disadvantages should really be something that bring a clear modification to the PC in himself, like "Unlucky", "Trauma" or "Keen Hearing" do. Of course, I know there already are such traits like "Enemy" or "Mentor", but I think it should be restricted to that; no need to put an Advantage / Disadvantage for each special thing about the Character. Otherwise, you can very quickly find Disadvantages such as "Odd Quirk", "Greedy", or "Xenophobic", that are hard to enforce by the GL and would tend to bring free points to the PC.

I understand and get the rationale that you explained above, and I actually quite agree with it for the most part. The thing is, I find that stuff like "Greedy" or "Xenophobic" are actually personality traits for the most part, not Advantages and Disadvantages, and they are in the correct place here: Character Traits as part of the Ways. The Disadvantage "Dark Secret" actually does fit the category that you mentioned above, since it's a series of events or an event that has modified the character in and of himself, but is *not* a personality trait directly. Does that make sense to you, and rationalize this better?

Clovis a écrit : Of course, as usual, it is only my personal idea on the subject.

Like you said.

Chacun a son gout. And just my 2 Ed.

JohnK a écrit :Hmm, you could be right about this, Clovis. That he was talking about Colossus, I mean. But the rules clearly state that the taking of the Strong advantage twice, meaning the Colossus costs the player 60 points, not 50. (See the top paragraph under Physical or Mental Advantage (variable cost) on page 213.) As noted on page 214, for the Weakling, that gives you the same 50 points that you would get for normally doubling that Disadvantage.

Well, that's what I just said, wasn't it? I mentioned that "Weakling" [...] would bring 50 to the Player"; I don't see where is the matter here.


Back to the initial topic, I understand your point of you, and I don't devalue it, of course. Still, as a GL, I'd keep my initial opinion: elements of the PC's personality should not become a possible cornucopia for easy experience points.

It's just that we don't have the same approach, and therefore deal with our use of the system differently; nothing wrong with that!

Clovis a écrit : Back to the initial topic, I understand your point of you, and I don't devalue it, of course. Still, as a GL, I'd keep my initial opinion: elements of the PC's personality should not become a possible cornucopia for easy experience points.

I guess the difference here is that I don't see this particular case as being related to personality. It relates to an event in one's past and how others see or treat you. That's definitely not personality.

Clovis a écrit : It's just that we don't have the same approach, and therefore deal with our use of the system differently; nothing wrong with that!

Yes, it appears we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.