[OK] New Beastie: Dilhorn or Grey Horn

[JohnK]

Hullo, Clovis,

I would also have assumed that common sense comes into this as well. That said, why is it necessary to choose numbers for creatures according to how dangerous they are for a human being? After all, animals in the wild don't just have to contend with humans, they have to contend with animals (and other creatures) that prey on them...or that they prey on.

Well, human beings should naturally not be the only reference point for creating animals. However, since the basic rules are obviously fitted for human beings, this seems like a good reference point to me. For example, we know that someone with a total rating of 15 in the Running Discipline is a very good sprinter, probably of the level of a professional athlete. So where does that take us compared to a hare, an ostrich, a horse, etc.?

Well,. that human is definitely faster than the hare, likely the ostrich as well, although I wouldn't be so sure about the horse. I guess, to be honest, I'm still not used to the game values of the system yet, so don't really know where the Running Discipline at 15 means, per se. This will take practice, experience, and seeing other game stats.

Though I have to wonder whether with that Speed the elephant can actually trample anyone.

Common sense dictates that it can, of course, but it's one of these elements that's difficult to include in something as schematic as a game's characteristics.

Ah, see it is all about common sense, among other things. Like you said, it's the difficult element to insert into game statistics and characteristics.

So I take it that Attack does not take into account strength and size, endurance of creatures is not taken into account in Characteristics, that sort of thing?

Actually, if that helps, you can set strength bonuses in the fashion of the "Strong" Advantage. For example, off the top of my head, I'd probably consider an elephant to have a "Strong x6" Advantage, but since animals directly have their statistics without Ways being involved, that would not actually be very relevant.

Not only wouldn't it be relevant, it wouldn't be all that...statistically friendly here. It would imply things like Attack 7 (+6 bonus) or some such, and that's just not got the right feel to me for the game.

Strength can be shown in the Damage of the animal, size in its Health Condition, Endurance in its Stamina, etc. I think you can always find a way to portray an animal's abilities with a modicum of realism if you are imaginative in making use of the system.

I agree with you. Just that I'm still learning the system and having to feel my way among the beasties and all that.

Thanks for being willing to exchange in this dialogue on the matter, Clovis. Much appreciated.

[Clovis]

Well,. that human is definitely faster than the hare, likely the ostrich as well, although I wouldn't be so sure about the horse. I guess, to be honest, I'm still not used to the game values of the system yet, so don't really know where the Running Discipline at 15 means, per se. This will take practice, experience, and seeing other game stats.

Just to clarify things: I said "total rating", which means that adding everything up, the Character has 15 + 1d10 when he makes a Running roll. This 15 can, for example, result from 4 in Combativeness, 10 in the Running Discipline, and +1 with the Strong Advantage. I did not mean that he has 15 in the Running Discipline, which would represent the absolute peak of human excellence!

Not only wouldn't it be relevant, it wouldn't be all that...statistically friendly here. It would imply things like Attack 7 (+6 bonus) or some such, and that's just not got the right feel to me for the game.

Exactly: no need to strictly and absolutely stick to the rules. Once more, we're getting back to common sense!

Thanks for being willing to exchange in this dialogue on the matter, Clovis. Much appreciated.

You're welcome. I know how difficult it can be to play a new role-playing game when you're in unfamiliar territory, so it's my pleasure to provide assistance to the community.

[JohnK]

Hullo, Clovis,

Just to clarify things: I said "total rating", which means that adding everything up, the Character has 15 + 1d10 when he makes a Running roll. This 15 can, for example, result from 4 in Combativeness, 10 in the Running Discipline, and +1 with the Strong Advantage. I did not mean that he has 15 in the Running Discipline, which would represent the absolute peak of human excellence!

Ah, okay...that puts it into a slightly different perspective, Clovis! Now what we're talking about here makes a bit more sense to me.

Not only wouldn't it be relevant, it wouldn't be all that...statistically friendly here. It would imply things like Attack 7 (+6 bonus) or some such, and that's just not got the right feel to me for the game.

Exactly: no need to strictly and absolutely stick to the rules. Once more, we're getting back to common sense!

Part of the problem is that I don't have a lot of experience yet with the game system, so the "logic" of the system and some of its elements don't quite make sense to me. Using common sense, and not strictly sticking with the rules is the best rule of all, of course!

Thanks for being willing to exchange in this dialogue on the matter, Clovis. Much appreciated.

You're welcome. I know how difficult it can be to play a new role-playing game when you're in unfamiliar territory, so it's my pleasure to provide assistance to the community.

Exactly! I think the French gamers and speakers here on the forums and those who have a good deal of experience with the game to this point (since it has been out since 2010 or thereabouts) forget at times that we English gamers are still working our heads around some of the concepts of the French game, and getting used to the game world and its style.

As you say, it's truly unfamiliar territory in some respects, and when it comes down to it, patience and a bit of latitude are needed with us English gamers. Of course, having Book 0 - Prologue (when it comes out for us non-Kickstarters) and Book 2 - Travels (when it is eventually translated and comes out for us English speakers) will make things a lot easier, and put things into perspective much more, I suspect.

That said, thanks for your patience with me and for being so understanding and answering various questions and all.

So, with the revised game stats that are up for the Dilhorn, can we put the beastie to bed and consider it complete now?

[Clovis]

Hullo, Clovis,As you say, it's truly unfamiliar territory in some respects, and when it comes down to it, patience and a bit of latitude are needed with us English gamers.

Well, it has also been noticed that American gamers tend to focus more on the system of a game than French ones... of course, I don't mean that U.S players are nitpicky spoilsports; just that, from what I know, they are more careful about details in that regard, hence the fact that there are more questions about this aspect of the game from the English-speaking community than from the French-speaking one!

Of course, having Book 0 - Prologue (when it comes out for us non-Kickstarters) and Book 2 - Travels (when it is eventually translated and comes out for us English speakers) will make things a lot easier, and put things into perspective much more, I suspect.

Don't worry, we are diligently working on the series... all in due time!

So, with the revised game stats that are up for the Dilhorn, can we put the beastie to bed and consider it complete now?

There's still the Attack that seems high to me, but otherwise, looking good!

At any rate, the best way to validate it will be to put it into play: if things don't go as you had expected, then you'll know what to change!

[JohnK]

Hullo, Clovis,

As you say, it's truly unfamiliar territory in some respects, and when it comes down to it, patience and a bit of latitude are needed with us English gamers.

Well, it has also been noticed that American gamers tend to focus more on the system of a game than French ones... of course, I don't mean that U.S players are nitpicky spoilsports; just that, from what I know, they are more careful about details in that regard, hence the fact that there are more questions about this aspect of the game from the English-speaking community than from the French-speaking one!

Actually, I've not really had any problems with the game system and mechanics per se, other than a couple of lacks of understanding pertaining to some of the combat mechanics and trying to get my head around the seeming simplistic nature of combat, and the lack of combat manouevers that most other combat systems seem to have. My only other real problem is my lack of understanding of the poisons system and mechanics, because there's not a lot there, and there are no real examples of poisons in the Book 1 - Universe. (I'll ask that in a proper thread here, never fear.)

I think you're right about the matter of American gamers focusing more on game mechanics than French (or perhaps other European) players. In many ways, it's not about nitpicking, it's about "roll-playing" rather than roleplaying. Sad, really. Or maybe it's just the mentality that folks have in this regard in America and the way that rpgs are designed there, compared to France and Europe. (But we're getting seriously off-topic here.)

Of course, having Book 0 - Prologue (when it comes out for us non-Kickstarters) and Book 2 - Travels (when it is eventually translated and comes out for us English speakers) will make things a lot easier, and put things into perspective much more, I suspect.

Don't worry, we are diligently working on the series... all in due time!

I really hope so! At this point, I just want Book 0 - Prologue, tu sais!

So, with the revised game stats that are up for the Dilhorn, can we put the beastie to bed and consider it complete now?

There's still the Attack that seems high to me, but otherwise, looking good!

I've actually just revised the stats, and done them in a more sensible order, as based on what I saw in a couple of scenarios in the French edition of Book 0, so take a look and let me know if the Attack stat is better there.

At any rate, the best way to validate it will be to put it into play: if things don't go as you had expected, then you'll know what to change!

This is true, which I've actually done with some sample characters I created. The Dilhorn is a dangerous creature if the characters don't know how to deal with it in the wilderness, and that was my intent.

Btw, starting player characters usually begin with what Defense on average?

[Clovis]

I've actually just revised the stats, and done them in a more sensible order, as based on what I saw in a couple of scenarios in the French edition of Book 0, so take a look and let me know if the Attack stat is better there.

If you consider the Dilhorn to be a serious threat, even for a trained warrior (the same way an adult wild boar would be), then 12 is good.

Btw, starting player characters usually begin with what Defense on average?

A Character's Defense can vary a lot according to his Ways, since it can go from a minimum of 7 to a maximum of 15... and even more (or even less) according to the chosen Advantages and Disadvantages. Without getting too much into the details, I'd say you can consider an average Defense rating to be of 11, since 3 is the average rating for each Way, and 5 + 3 (Empathy) +3 (Reason) = 11.

[JohnK]

Hullo, Clovis,

I've actually just revised the stats, and done them in a more sensible order, as based on what I saw in a couple of scenarios in the French edition of Book 0, so take a look and let me know if the Attack stat is better there.

If you consider the Dilhorn to be a serious threat, even for a trained warrior (the same way an adult wild boar would be), then 12 is good.

Yes, that's exactly how I see the Dilhorn. Smart characters will leave these creatures alone, though sometimes Dilhorns will attack just because of their mean temper or because the characters are infringing on what it perceives to be its territory.

Btw, starting player characters usually begin with what Defense on average?

A Character's Defense can vary a lot according to his Ways, since it can go from a minimum of 7 to a maximum of 15... and even more (or even less) according to the chosen Advantages and Disadvantages. Without getting too much into the details, I'd say you can consider an average Defense rating to be of 11, since 3 is the average rating for each Way, and 5 + 3 (Empathy) +3 (Reason) = 11.

That makes excellent sense to me, Clovis, and that really will serve as a good guideline, I suspect. Like I said, I'm still getting used to working with some elements of the game system, and with no real guidelines about stuff, it's really a new experience to me. Especially since I don't focus on game mechanics and the game math behind things as a general rule.

Thanks, mon ami.