Hello all,
Shadows of Esteren will be my first every game where I take on the role of a GL. I have no previous experience GM'ing any other systems, but I have played Pathfinder for about a year. My question is regarding the sanity system in SoE. It sounds like a really interesting system, however the book has a blurb about how inexperienced players and GL's might want not use this system.
I am a a loss as what to do. I realize the book says mental resistance checks aren't meant to be thrown around with reckless abandon, nor should they be used to punish the players. But I really like the idea of the 'shock' element when something supernatural or horrific first appears before the players. So as a first time GL, do you suggest that I run the sanity component or not use it at all?
New GL and Sanity system
Re: New GL and Sanity system
I'd say it depends on two major elements:
1) How comfortable do you feel as a GL?
Corollary: How comfortable do you feel with SoE's system?
If you feel like you are going to be able to handle a gaming session well, then you can include the Sanity system from the start. However, if you're not that confident, then, keeping things simple might be the best option.
2) How comfortable do you feel with your Players?
Whether you play with close friends or strangers makes a great difference: many elements during a RPG session can throw confusion or resentment among the Players, particularly rules-related points. Handling Sanity is rather delicate since, after all, you'll be handling the PCs' psyche. Therefore, if you are GLing for people you don't know very well (or simply people you know to be easily ticked off), leaving Sanity aside might be a good way to play it safe.
However, if your Players are open-minded, then the Sanity aspect of SoE can be a very good way to delve into the psychological aspect of the game.
Actually, my advice would be to include Sanity-related elements from the very start (mainly by having the Players record their starting Trauma points and choose their Latent Mental Disorders), but to only make use of them after at least one or two sessions, the time for you and your Players to get a good feel of the game.
After all, horror in SoE is supposed to be subtle and gradual, so chances are you won't have to make your Players roll for Mental Resistance from the very start. To begin with, have your Players go through a simple, straightforward scenario; then, progressively, you can make the game more complex!
I hope this will be of help! If you still have questions, don't hesitate to ask!
1) How comfortable do you feel as a GL?
Corollary: How comfortable do you feel with SoE's system?
If you feel like you are going to be able to handle a gaming session well, then you can include the Sanity system from the start. However, if you're not that confident, then, keeping things simple might be the best option.
2) How comfortable do you feel with your Players?
Whether you play with close friends or strangers makes a great difference: many elements during a RPG session can throw confusion or resentment among the Players, particularly rules-related points. Handling Sanity is rather delicate since, after all, you'll be handling the PCs' psyche. Therefore, if you are GLing for people you don't know very well (or simply people you know to be easily ticked off), leaving Sanity aside might be a good way to play it safe.
However, if your Players are open-minded, then the Sanity aspect of SoE can be a very good way to delve into the psychological aspect of the game.
Actually, my advice would be to include Sanity-related elements from the very start (mainly by having the Players record their starting Trauma points and choose their Latent Mental Disorders), but to only make use of them after at least one or two sessions, the time for you and your Players to get a good feel of the game.
After all, horror in SoE is supposed to be subtle and gradual, so chances are you won't have to make your Players roll for Mental Resistance from the very start. To begin with, have your Players go through a simple, straightforward scenario; then, progressively, you can make the game more complex!
I hope this will be of help! If you still have questions, don't hesitate to ask!
Allez, come on, allons-y, here we go, en avant, godspeed, hardi, let's do this!
Re: New GL and Sanity system
Ramzi, I just started running an Esteren campaign a few weeks ago, so I think I'm qualified to give some advice on this very topic, being a new GL myself. 
Do you have Book 0? If so, I think the scenarios in there provide a good measure for how often to ask for mental resistance checks.
Rolling a few mental resistance checks during a session might make it seem like your players' characters are going to go crazy really quickly. However, failed mental resistance rolls only give temporary trauma points, which go away if the characters are able to rest for a week in a safe place. So the most important thing is pacing, which I think is an important skill to pick up on as a GM in general. So if you run your PCs through the ringer in an extended, horrifying situation where they have to make a bunch of mental resistance rolls in a short period of time, they may very well go temporarily mad. However, you can decide to have a "break" in the campaign a short time later where the PCs have a chance to rest, so everything is more or less back to normal.
However, it's important to remember that the more mental resistance checks you have your players make, the more likely their PCs are to get permanent trauma points by rolling a 1 on the check. So it's a careful balancing act.
Here are a few examples from our campaign that I think are illustrative of some lessons I've learned:
1) You can use mental resistance checks to enforce a certain atmosphere when a player isn't giving a convincing performance. One of the PCs had an illness that drove him temporarily mad, experiencing severe delusions and whatnot. To add some flavor during the session, when the player said that his PC was going to fill his water canteen from a nearby mountain spring, I said that his PC saw in the water the faces of his dead family staring up at him. The player said, "... oookay, I'm not doing that, then." I thought this was a very unconvincing response, so I had him roll a mental resistance check. My thinking was that the result of the roll -- whether a success, a failure, or scarring -- would create a more interesting narrative event than what had just happened. He succeeded on the roll, so I narrated his PC shutting his eyes and, upon opening them, the faces were gone.
2) A mental resistance check can help spur a player's imagination. One of the PCs, a priest of the Temple, tried using the Healing miracle -- which he had never been able to use before -- on another PC, who was a stubborn, fanatical support of Magience. As the priest touched the other PCs forehead, I narrated his sudden awakening to the Healing miracle and the miraculous effects that it had on the Magientist's wounds. I asked the player of the Magientist what her PC was thinking at the moment, and she thought for a moment and said, "... I have no idea how to roleplay this." So I asked her to make a mental resistance check as this inexplicable phenomenon shook the foundation of how she believed the world worked. She not only failed, but the trauma points took her up to the syndrome stage of Mysticism. So I told the player that while her PC was shaken by this inexplicable event, she suddenly felt more resolved than ever to prove to the priest that his system of beliefs is wrong and that she knows the truth. Inspired by this, the player RPed her PC shoving the priest into the snow and screaming at him, since one way that people have of dealing with trauma is "anger."
3) Sometimes it's better to not roll. Running a published scenario, there was one scene that called for a mental resistance roll as the PCs looked at a man's face horribly disfigured by some illness. However, I forgot to call for the check at the right moment, and with the way the scene was going, the roll and its results just interfered with the pacing of the scene.
Do you have any specific concerns about the sanity system? One other thing to consider is that it requires a lot of bookkeeping if you keep track of it all yourself in secret.
Do you have Book 0? If so, I think the scenarios in there provide a good measure for how often to ask for mental resistance checks.
Rolling a few mental resistance checks during a session might make it seem like your players' characters are going to go crazy really quickly. However, failed mental resistance rolls only give temporary trauma points, which go away if the characters are able to rest for a week in a safe place. So the most important thing is pacing, which I think is an important skill to pick up on as a GM in general. So if you run your PCs through the ringer in an extended, horrifying situation where they have to make a bunch of mental resistance rolls in a short period of time, they may very well go temporarily mad. However, you can decide to have a "break" in the campaign a short time later where the PCs have a chance to rest, so everything is more or less back to normal.
However, it's important to remember that the more mental resistance checks you have your players make, the more likely their PCs are to get permanent trauma points by rolling a 1 on the check. So it's a careful balancing act.
Here are a few examples from our campaign that I think are illustrative of some lessons I've learned:
1) You can use mental resistance checks to enforce a certain atmosphere when a player isn't giving a convincing performance. One of the PCs had an illness that drove him temporarily mad, experiencing severe delusions and whatnot. To add some flavor during the session, when the player said that his PC was going to fill his water canteen from a nearby mountain spring, I said that his PC saw in the water the faces of his dead family staring up at him. The player said, "... oookay, I'm not doing that, then." I thought this was a very unconvincing response, so I had him roll a mental resistance check. My thinking was that the result of the roll -- whether a success, a failure, or scarring -- would create a more interesting narrative event than what had just happened. He succeeded on the roll, so I narrated his PC shutting his eyes and, upon opening them, the faces were gone.
2) A mental resistance check can help spur a player's imagination. One of the PCs, a priest of the Temple, tried using the Healing miracle -- which he had never been able to use before -- on another PC, who was a stubborn, fanatical support of Magience. As the priest touched the other PCs forehead, I narrated his sudden awakening to the Healing miracle and the miraculous effects that it had on the Magientist's wounds. I asked the player of the Magientist what her PC was thinking at the moment, and she thought for a moment and said, "... I have no idea how to roleplay this." So I asked her to make a mental resistance check as this inexplicable phenomenon shook the foundation of how she believed the world worked. She not only failed, but the trauma points took her up to the syndrome stage of Mysticism. So I told the player that while her PC was shaken by this inexplicable event, she suddenly felt more resolved than ever to prove to the priest that his system of beliefs is wrong and that she knows the truth. Inspired by this, the player RPed her PC shoving the priest into the snow and screaming at him, since one way that people have of dealing with trauma is "anger."
3) Sometimes it's better to not roll. Running a published scenario, there was one scene that called for a mental resistance roll as the PCs looked at a man's face horribly disfigured by some illness. However, I forgot to call for the check at the right moment, and with the way the scene was going, the roll and its results just interfered with the pacing of the scene.
Do you have any specific concerns about the sanity system? One other thing to consider is that it requires a lot of bookkeeping if you keep track of it all yourself in secret.
Re: New GL and Sanity system
The piece of advice I would give is :
Use the Sanity rules if you (and your players) are comfortable and ready to play a horror game.
If you're ready, go for the full-fledged horror game: set the mood with music/lighting, use very detailed descriptions (tell the players what the characters are seeing/hearing NOT what their characters are feeling), bring in a feond but leave your players in the dark, make them doubt (don't use the word feond right away), ask for a lot of perception rolls (did you hear that?), make the characters suffer, trap them, split the group, make them witness truly horrific scenes (blood, fog, rats, spiders, catacombs, fire/ice...), prepare a big twist for the end (a betrayal? a moral dilemma? an illusion?)... If you keep the action going, you won't have problem asking for mental resistance rolls because it will seem natural each time.
If you don't feel ready yet, put the Sanity rules aside and start with a simple game to introduce the setting and mood of the game (but keep in mind the elements listed above), see how the players react and go from there. Here is a list of horror tropes you can reuse in your games: betrayal, isolation, claustrophobia, confusion, despair, the weird/supernatural, and helplessness.
Hope this helps!
Use the Sanity rules if you (and your players) are comfortable and ready to play a horror game.
If you're ready, go for the full-fledged horror game: set the mood with music/lighting, use very detailed descriptions (tell the players what the characters are seeing/hearing NOT what their characters are feeling), bring in a feond but leave your players in the dark, make them doubt (don't use the word feond right away), ask for a lot of perception rolls (did you hear that?), make the characters suffer, trap them, split the group, make them witness truly horrific scenes (blood, fog, rats, spiders, catacombs, fire/ice...), prepare a big twist for the end (a betrayal? a moral dilemma? an illusion?)... If you keep the action going, you won't have problem asking for mental resistance rolls because it will seem natural each time.
If you don't feel ready yet, put the Sanity rules aside and start with a simple game to introduce the setting and mood of the game (but keep in mind the elements listed above), see how the players react and go from there. Here is a list of horror tropes you can reuse in your games: betrayal, isolation, claustrophobia, confusion, despair, the weird/supernatural, and helplessness.
Hope this helps!
"Ne t'en inquiète pas, jeune savant, il est parfois préférable que certaines énigmes demeurent..."
Re: New GL and Sanity system
Thanks for all the wonderful advice guys, I've decided to include the sanity rules
Basically the message I am seeing is to use them rarely, unless the pc's are reacting to something in a way that goes against their personality. Or are especially dramatic plot points.
Sorry one other question, I am a bit confused on character creation.
When a player reaches 5 ranks in a Domain, do they automatically get a discipline for free, or do they have to pay 25XP to acquire it?
Basically the message I am seeing is to use them rarely, unless the pc's are reacting to something in a way that goes against their personality. Or are especially dramatic plot points.
Sorry one other question, I am a bit confused on character creation.
When a player reaches 5 ranks in a Domain, do they automatically get a discipline for free, or do they have to pay 25XP to acquire it?
Re: New GL and Sanity system
Another question regarding character creation:
What happens when a character gains a +1 to their primary domain from either birthplace or social class. I know the book says that domains are capped at 5th rank, but is there no way of applying that +1 to another domain?
Example would be a Hunter, they get +5 to Natural Environment(Primary domain)
If you take rural environment as your birthplace, that also will give you a + 1 to natural environment. If a character wanted to play a traditional hunter(of the wilds/tracker), do they lose out on their bonus, or can they apply it to another domain?
What happens when a character gains a +1 to their primary domain from either birthplace or social class. I know the book says that domains are capped at 5th rank, but is there no way of applying that +1 to another domain?
Example would be a Hunter, they get +5 to Natural Environment(Primary domain)
If you take rural environment as your birthplace, that also will give you a + 1 to natural environment. If a character wanted to play a traditional hunter(of the wilds/tracker), do they lose out on their bonus, or can they apply it to another domain?
Re: New GL and Sanity system
Well I wouldn't necessarily say "rarely". "Moderately" would be more adequate: Mental Resistance rolls and Trauma points can be nice tools to stress the psychological impact of a scene, but overusing them can take out the spice out of them. Therefore, you must keep a happy medium between too much Mental Resistance rolls and not enough.Ramzi a écrit :Basically the message I am seeing is to use them rarely, unless the pc's are reacting to something in a way that goes against their personality. Or are especially dramatic plot points.
But yeah, basically, you'd better keep them for dramatic moments; not just because a Character has been frightened or surprised.
Once a Character reaches a rating of 5 in a Domain, the Disciplines are accessible to him. To obtain the first level in a Discipline, the Character still has to pay 25XPs (or 20 if the Character has the help of a teacher, as mentioned in the rules).When a player reaches 5 ranks in a Domain, do they automatically get a discipline for free, or do they have to pay 25XP to acquire it?
The answer to your question is in the box at the bottom of p.206: if the Character's rating in a Domain goes beyond 5 during Creation, then he/she obtains a Discipline.Ramzi a écrit :Another question regarding character creation:
What happens when a character gains a +1 to their primary domain from either birthplace or social class. I know the book says that domains are capped at 5th rank, but is there no way of applying that +1 to another domain?
Example would be a Hunter, they get +5 to Natural Environment(Primary domain)
If you take rural environment as your birthplace, that also will give you a + 1 to natural environment. If a character wanted to play a traditional hunter(of the wilds/tracker), do they lose out on their bonus, or can they apply it to another domain?
Let's take your example of a Hunter who already has 5 in Natural Environment because it is his Primary Domain, then gets a +1 in Natural Environment bacause he is from a rural birthplace. Since he reaches 6, the basic rating in the Domain caps at 5, but this grants him a Discipline at 6, which he is free to choose.
Allez, come on, allons-y, here we go, en avant, godspeed, hardi, let's do this!
Re: New GL and Sanity system
I do apologize if this seems like a thread hijack, but my questions are about the Sanity system.
I’ll start with an example character layout: at creation, a character’s Combativeness was 3 and their Creativity was 4, the result is an 7 Instinct; a 2 Reason and 5 Conviction would yield a 7 Consciousness.
The resulting difference of 0 means no starting Trauma; As they are balanced, they’ve selected their Orientation to be Rational.
1. Does Strengthening/Weakening affect the derived values of Consciousness and Instinct (and, as a possible consequence, the Character’s Orientation)?
Given that example, if a character’s latent disorder is Hallucination, their object of Strengthening is Creativity and their Weakening is Reason. When pushed into Madness, their Reason drops to 1, their Creativity increases to 5.
Does this change their Consciousness to 6 and their Instinct to 8? This would change their Orientation to “Instinctive.”
I don’t think the difference (2) is reflected in their permanent trauma, since the language in the character creation chapter makes it sound like this is a one-time thing. If this change to their personality should be reflected by accumulating 2 extra Trauma points, fine, but that seems punitive, especially since this is all happening while they’re probably already accumulating temporary and permanent Trauma.
2. Does Strengthening/Weakening of Ways affect the reflected Faults?
Using the same example, does the character’s Subversion increase to 5 while their Doubt decrease to 1? I’d say yes.
I’ll start with an example character layout: at creation, a character’s Combativeness was 3 and their Creativity was 4, the result is an 7 Instinct; a 2 Reason and 5 Conviction would yield a 7 Consciousness.
The resulting difference of 0 means no starting Trauma; As they are balanced, they’ve selected their Orientation to be Rational.
1. Does Strengthening/Weakening affect the derived values of Consciousness and Instinct (and, as a possible consequence, the Character’s Orientation)?
Given that example, if a character’s latent disorder is Hallucination, their object of Strengthening is Creativity and their Weakening is Reason. When pushed into Madness, their Reason drops to 1, their Creativity increases to 5.
Does this change their Consciousness to 6 and their Instinct to 8? This would change their Orientation to “Instinctive.”
I don’t think the difference (2) is reflected in their permanent trauma, since the language in the character creation chapter makes it sound like this is a one-time thing. If this change to their personality should be reflected by accumulating 2 extra Trauma points, fine, but that seems punitive, especially since this is all happening while they’re probably already accumulating temporary and permanent Trauma.
2. Does Strengthening/Weakening of Ways affect the reflected Faults?
Using the same example, does the character’s Subversion increase to 5 while their Doubt decrease to 1? I’d say yes.
Re: New GL and Sanity system
Hello seanscian!
There is no by-the-book rule in that regard, so that would be up to the GL. Were I to come up with a ruling in such circumstances, I would discuss it with the Player to see what we would both consider the most fitting.
However, this is not a very important matter, as a Character's Orientation is mostly a reference for role-playing purposes. As long as the Player as a solid enough idea of how their Character is evolving and where they're going, there's no big need to make a decision.
As for the difference the Strengthening and Weakening would result in, you're right: it doesn't result in additional Trauma points in case the gap increases... and doesn't remove existing ones in case the gap decreases!
And concerning the Faults, this is correct: since the Faults mirror the Ways, each one follows the score of the matching Way.
I hope these answers are satisfactory. If you have other questions, feel free to ask!
There is no by-the-book rule in that regard, so that would be up to the GL. Were I to come up with a ruling in such circumstances, I would discuss it with the Player to see what we would both consider the most fitting.
However, this is not a very important matter, as a Character's Orientation is mostly a reference for role-playing purposes. As long as the Player as a solid enough idea of how their Character is evolving and where they're going, there's no big need to make a decision.
As for the difference the Strengthening and Weakening would result in, you're right: it doesn't result in additional Trauma points in case the gap increases... and doesn't remove existing ones in case the gap decreases!
And concerning the Faults, this is correct: since the Faults mirror the Ways, each one follows the score of the matching Way.
I hope these answers are satisfactory. If you have other questions, feel free to ask!
Allez, come on, allons-y, here we go, en avant, godspeed, hardi, let's do this!
Re: New GL and Sanity system
Discussing it with the players is what I’ve been doing, and we’ve more or less settled on having the different effects actually reflected in Personality.
Also, you’re completely right that this isn’t very important, since these complications would only manifest when a character is pushed into Madness. As the characters are losing their grip on reality, the players will have gained a solid grip on how to play them.
The situation I use as an example, where a character is in balance and they’ve “unfortunately” selected an Orientation that will get changed when they accumulate enough Trauma, is actually something to discuss with the player. If they’ve allocated their Ways to create a 7/7 balance, I’ve recommended they select an Orientation that will specifically not change when their latent Disorder adjusts their Ways; this will make roleplaying the character just a little easier.
If they’re up for a challenge, or just want to have some roleplaying fun, I let them know that it’s perfectly fine if they do select an Orientation that changes with their slow crawl into Madness! They’ll find that their observations and reactions are slightly at odds with each other, that the GL is asking for some rolls that they’d otherwise not normally seem to have to make. This is the Instinctive person uncharacteristically taking the time to weigh their decisions; it’s the normally Rational person just “going with their gut.” This itself can trigger a story arc, where the player starts to realize they need help—or they don’t and it’s up to the rest of the party to intervene!
Thanks for the reply. This is really is one of the best Sanity systems I’ve seen. Its overall secrecy while remaining playable is what makes it so.
Also, you’re completely right that this isn’t very important, since these complications would only manifest when a character is pushed into Madness. As the characters are losing their grip on reality, the players will have gained a solid grip on how to play them.
The situation I use as an example, where a character is in balance and they’ve “unfortunately” selected an Orientation that will get changed when they accumulate enough Trauma, is actually something to discuss with the player. If they’ve allocated their Ways to create a 7/7 balance, I’ve recommended they select an Orientation that will specifically not change when their latent Disorder adjusts their Ways; this will make roleplaying the character just a little easier.
If they’re up for a challenge, or just want to have some roleplaying fun, I let them know that it’s perfectly fine if they do select an Orientation that changes with their slow crawl into Madness! They’ll find that their observations and reactions are slightly at odds with each other, that the GL is asking for some rolls that they’d otherwise not normally seem to have to make. This is the Instinctive person uncharacteristically taking the time to weigh their decisions; it’s the normally Rational person just “going with their gut.” This itself can trigger a story arc, where the player starts to realize they need help—or they don’t and it’s up to the rest of the party to intervene!
Thanks for the reply. This is really is one of the best Sanity systems I’ve seen. Its overall secrecy while remaining playable is what makes it so.