Sleeping Agent - homebrew

[Ramzi]

Greetings fellow GL's

I have a player who wants to use a sleeping powder for say sneaking up on guards and incapacitating them. I see no mention of this in the book, so I am thinking of making a house rule for this player. My idea came from the poison section.

What i am thinking is once the player attempts to apply the powder to say a guard on duty(assuming he passes his stealth test to sneak up on the guard unawares), the guard would then have to make a (difficult 17) stamina roll to prevent from being drugged unconscious. This is my first time as a GL, and I would love to hear how some of you other more experienced people would suggest implementing this?

I look forward to your suggestions.

[Ramzi]

Also how rare/expensive would you recommend this powder to be?

[Clovis]

Hmm, a tough question, to be sure, all the more so considering I'm far from being an expert in poisons and drugs (gosh, who would have guessed? ).

To be able to give you a constructive answer, I read a little about chloroform and other similar anesthetics, and to begin with, I think it would make more sense for the sleeping powder to actually be a "sleeping liquid", since it is simpler and safer to apply a moist piece of cloth on someone's face than to blow something on them. One of the major risks would indeed be that the powder could backfire and affect the user as well.

Now, as for the effects of the liquid (or powder, if you stick to your basic idea), a Difficult Stamina roll seems good: not impossible, but hard enough for the drug to have real effectiveness. If you choose the choloroform-like option, another solution could be to dictate that for each Round the victim is kept with the cloth on her face (and thus is exposed to inhaling the chemical), she has to make a Stamina roll of growing Difficulty: Standard (11) on the first Round, then Complicated (14) on the second, etc. During this time, the aggressor has to struggle to keep the cloth in place until the victim either falls unconscious or manages to push her aggressor away.

Whatever solution you choose, there is one thing I would like to stress: knockout drugs are far from safe, since the whole thing is performed hastily. As a result, the victim may die from cardiac arrhythmia, or fall into a coma, instead of just falling unconscious. To show this rules-wise, I'd recommend dictating that a 1 on the Stamina roll to resist the product leads to death.


Now, as for the price, I'd say "pretty expensive", since such a product will logically be not only difficult to make, but also illegal. Therefore, a price of at least 3 azure Daols would not seem excessive to me.


There you have it! Does that help?

[Ramzi]

That is very helpful Clovis!

But please, lets break it down shall we? I like the growing stamina difficulty idea. But lets take it step by step.

- First attack, poison is applied, defender must make a normal(11) stamina roll.

- Attacker must then make a grapple check(should this be combativeness +close combat or just close combat?) to keep the defender restrained and the cloth firmly clamped on the defender's face. What is the target to beat... difficult?

2nd round
-If nothing is changed, and both attack and defender are locked still, defend makes a difficult(14) stamina roll/Attack makes another grapple check.. should this be the same/harder or easier you think?

3rd round
- I would say after a third failed stamina check, the defender succumbs to the sleeper agent.

I am curious why you say such a concoction would be illegal? I must confess that i have not finished reading the first part of book 1 yet. I've been mostly getting my head around character creation and combat(first time as a GL). If i have overlooked something, I apologize!

I look forward to hearing your advice!

[Clovis]

- First attack, poison is applied, defender must make a normal(11) stamina roll.

Of course, this implies that either the defender is taken by surprise (with a successful Stealth roll against a Perception check from the defender), or overpowered by the aggressor (who must then make a Close Combat roll against the defender's Defense... probably with an additional margin of 3 or 5, to make for the fact that the aggressor is targeting a very specific part of the body).

- Attacker must then make a grapple check(should this be combativeness +close combat or just close combat?) to keep the defender restrained and the cloth firmly clamped on the defender's face. What is the target to beat... difficult?

Obviously, Combativeness + Close Combat... or Combativeness + Unarmed Fighting, if the aggressor has this Discipline. Skill rolls in Esteren are always [Way] + [Domain / Discipline].

The target to beat should logically be a Close Combat (or, again, Unarmed Fighting) roll from the defender. Basically, it's a Contested Action, as described at the top of p.234.

2nd round
-If nothing is changed, and both attack and defender are locked still, defend makes a difficult(14) stamina roll/Attack makes another grapple check.. should this be the same/harder or easier you think?

Same as above: Close Combat vs Close Combat.

3rd round
- I would say after a third failed stamina check, the defender succumbs to the sleeper agent.

So you would say that the victim has to fail three Stamina checks for the drug to take effect? I would dictate that a single failure is enough to fall unconscious, but you are free to do otherwise if you deem this too brutal.

I am curious why you say such a concoction would be illegal? I must confess that i have not finished reading the first part of book 1 yet. I've been mostly getting my head around character creation and combat(first time as a GL). If i have overlooked something, I apologize!

Maybe my reasoning was a bit rushed. There are no precise rules in Book 1 about obtaining specific products or about black markets, so this is mainly improvisation on my part. It will not necessarily be illegal (since, after all, it can be used for medicinal purposes), but it will probably be rather difficult to find (thus of Rare Availability) and expensive, since it is a complex chemical.

[Ramzi]

I think I understand you more clearly now. So in a grapple, both characters roll opposing close combat checks, the attacker trying to hold the target, and the defender attempting to break free?

I agree one failed stamina roll is enough, I just thought of doing several rounds of tests to simulate the frantic struggle in trying to restrain someone against their will. I suppose a more appropriate way to do this would be to have several close combat/unarmed tests unless the attacker rolls really high on the first test, at which point he is assumed to have got the jump on the defender and has him held securely.

[Clovis]

I think I understand you more clearly now. So in a grapple, both characters roll opposing close combat checks, the attacker trying to hold the target, and the defender attempting to break free?

Eeyup. Simple as ABC.

I agree one failed stamina roll is enough, I just thought of doing several rounds of tests to simulate the frantic struggle in trying to restrain someone against their will. I suppose a more appropriate way to do this would be to have several close combat/unarmed tests unless the attacker rolls really high on the first test, at which point he is assumed to have got the jump on the defender and has him held securely.

Well the struggle can last several Rounds if the victim makes successful Stamina rolls.

Here is a simulation, just to make sure we're on the same wavelength:

Aggressor is a seasoned spy with the following scores:
Attack: 9 (4 in Combativeness + 5 in Close Combat); Speed: 9 (4 in Combativeness + 5 in Empathy); Stealth (Furtiveness): 12 (5 in Empathy + 5 in Stealth + Furtiveness Discipline at 7)

Defender is a guard with the following scores:
Attack: 10 (5 in Combativeness + 5 in Close Combat); Speed: 7 (5 in Combativeness + 2 in Empathy); Defense: 12 (5 + 2 in Empathy + 4 in Reason + 1 bought with xp); Stamina: 10; Perception (Alertness): 10 (4 in Reason + 5 in Perception + Alertness Discipline at 6)


Wanting to put Defender out of his way, Aggressor tries to sneak up on him to give him a good dose of sleeping drug, so the GL has him roll Stealth (Furtiveness) against Defender's Perception (Alertness).

Aggressor gets 4 on his roll, bringing him to 16
Defender gets 8 on his roll, bringing him to 18

Since Defender has the upper hand, Aggressor has been spotted! Seeing the guard suddenly turn around, Aggressor's Player announces he is going to try to brutally apply his drug-soaked handkerchief on Defender's mouth. To see who is going to act first, the GL has the two Characters roll for Initiative.

Aggressor gets 5 on his roll, bringing him to 14
Defender also gets 5 on his roll, bringing him to 12

Aggressor is first to act, and to be able to clamp the piece of cloth on Defender's mouth, he has to beat his Defense with a Close Combat roll. Moreover, the GL dictates that since the Player is trying to hit such a specific part of the body, the roll gets a -3 penalty.

Aggressor gets 7 on his roll, bringing him to 13 (since he gets a -3 on his roll). A close success against Defender's Defense of 12!

Now, the GL makes a Stamina check for the guard to see if he is immediately affected by the drug. He gets a 3 which, unsurprisingly, is enough to resist the initial Standard (11) Difficulty Threshold.

For his action, Defender tries to push Aggressor away, which is resolved with opposed Close Combat rolls:

Aggressor gets 7 on his roll, bringing him to 16
Defender also gets 5 on his roll, bringing him to 15

Aggressor got the highest result, so Defender does not manage to struggle free. Now, it is Aggressor's turn, but since his action is basically to keep pressing the cloth on Defender's mouth, no roll is required. Therefore, the GL directly skips to Defender's action, starting with the Complicated (14) Stamina roll, for which he gets a measly 2, bringing him to an insufficient total of 12. Aggressor can see Defender suddenly stop struggling and abruptly slump down...

Phew, this took longer than expected!

[Ramzi]

Thank you for that clear and very helpful example! I will use this as a reference for future house rules!

[Clovis]

Ha ha, you're welcome!

So as not to complicate to issue, I did not take into account the Fighting Attitudes and Survival points systems, but don't forget that they contribute to a dynamic action too.

[StripelessTiger]

I hate to necro-post a topic from 2012, but I was searching the forum for homebrews on Sleeping or Paralyzing poisons. I didn't know if anyone had any rules for Sleep or Paralysis poisons on darts or daggers, so I figured I'd propose it on this topic because it fits the theme. This topic is equally useful, but I have a player who wants to poison tip his crossbow bolts in some kinda fast acting poisons. I don't like the idea of a flat Stamina check.

The Universe Book has rules for Poisons on pg. 243 but they fall short of what I need. Direct and Progressive Poisoning are meant for non-combat lethality and take awhile (days instead of rounds). I like that they use the Disease Point system, which is a great system.

Since the official rules state if you used a Deadly Virulence of 20 points of Poison damage over the course of a day, that incapacitates/kills most 19HP characters and NPCs, which is good! However, it basically uses a trimmed down and incomplete modification of the Disease system, glossing over Incubation Time and Duration. Even if I factored these in, the best we can hope for is the poison taking effect within hours over the course of a day to several weeks adding the Poison Points. Still not adequate for rounds of combat, since they only last for 6 seconds each.

With some slight changes, I think I have a working solution.

Fast-Acting Poisons (Sleeping or Paralyzing)

• Type: Direct
• Incubation: Immediate
• Duration: 1d10 minutes
• Virulence Level: 20 (non-lethal)
• Poison Points: 20 (4 points/round)

Immediate incubation means they start suffering the Poison Points as soon as they are wounded.

Duration is how long until the character starts to recover from unconsciousness or paralysis. Could be minutes, or hours depending on the concoction.

Virulence needs to be 20 (Deadly) for strong concoctions to knock out most characters, or instead Malignant (15) for a weaker poison, but both need to be non-lethal!

And lastly changed the division of Disease/Poison points per day or hour, to a round. Maybe the character has to roll Stamina versus the Virulence difficulty in order to resist the accumulation of the points that round?

I think this will work, and still allow for the character to recover their temporarily lost HP using the standard Disease recovery system. I feel like these systems should have been merged to start, I'm just trying to reconcile them.

Is there anything I'm missing/forgetting, or something I'm overlooking that might break the game?

Thoughts?

Thank you.