Les Ombres d'Esteren - Forum officiel

After reading the rules, I am left to wonder a bit about the dice rolling. A critical success is achieved by rolling a 10 and then rolling another 10. A critical failure is achieved by rolling 1 and then rolling another 1. Some rules described special effects for rolling a 1 or 10.

My issue here is: This feels completely random. Nothing in those rules relates to the actual level of skill possessed by the character. I don't really like that. A fluke dice roll suddenly grants you an advantage or a disadvantage. It simply feels broken, because someone with a high skill could still incurr disadvantages, because he rolled a 1.

Also, criticals will only happen 2% of the time. Not really enough to bother with them at all.

So, I am proposing an alternate dice roll:
You determine success by rolling Way + Domain/Discipline + 1W10 like in the normal rules. When Way + Domain/Discipline exceed or equal the Difficulty, you don't need to roll at all, you simply achieve a normal success.

When you roll a 10, you roll again. Then you add the result to the first roll. You don't get to re-roll another 10.

When you roll a 1, you roll again. Then you subtract the total sum of both roles from your result. You don't reroll another 1.

A critical success is achieved, when you exceed the Difficulty Target by a margin of 10 or more.

A critical failure is achieved, when your total is at least 10 lower than the Difficulty Target.

Could that actually work?

My second alternative proposal is: leave everything as it is and re-name Critical Failure to "Very bad luck" and "Critical Success" to "Very lucky".

Murder-of-Crows a écrit : My second alternative proposal is: leave everything as it is and re-name Critical Failure to "Very bad luck" and "Critical Success" to "Very lucky".

That's been the definition of a critical hit/miss in every RPG I've ever played. Die-rolling has always been the game element that represents luck, since your character's skill is all of the numbers before you add the die roll.

Dragoslav a écrit : That's been the definition of a critical hit/miss in every RPG I've ever played. Die-rolling has always been the game element that represents luck, since your character's skill is all of the numbers before you add the die roll.

I know a number of games, where your skill directly influcences your chances for critical success and failure: World of Darkness (the new one), Eclipse Phase, Runequest, Savage Worlds... to name just a few.

I use a custom rule : if a player want, he can ensure is test and consider he gets a 5. This just joined your idea. He can choice to roll the dice and have a chance to success more, get a critical, or fail, radically. Generally I do not like the expression of critical success or failure. I prefer the notions splendor or complication, more interesting in term of narration.

iz

PS : I love SAWO

Murder-of-Crows a écrit : I know a number of games, where your skill directly influcences your chances for critical success and failure: World of Darkness (the new one), Eclipse Phase, Runequest, Savage Worlds... to name just a few.

Interesting. Well, if other systems don't have random critical hits/misses, then I certainly won't stop anyone from coming up with an alternative rule for Esteren.

It makes me wonder, what was the first game system to use critical hits/misses? Was it D&D? That would explain why so many systems (especially computer RPGs) copy its system for critical hits.

Fundamentally, I've fot nothing against your suggestion MoC, but you gotta admit it's a tad more complicated than the original version, which bothers me a little. However, for someone who wants to stress excellence instead of luck, that can work.

Dragoslav a écrit :

Murder-of-Crows a écrit : My second alternative proposal is: leave everything as it is and re-name Critical Failure to "Very bad luck" and "Critical Success" to "Very lucky".

That's been the definition of a critical hit/miss in every RPG I've ever played. Die-rolling has always been the game element that represents luck, since your character's skill is all of the numbers before you add the die roll.

Indeed, that's precisely what Esteren's Critical Success / Failure represents here: it is in no way related to skill, but is rather the idea of having a sudden income of good / bad luck, which indicates the Character acing or botching his action through coincidence.

Murder-of-Crows a écrit :I know a number of games, where your skill directly influcences your chances for critical success and failure: World of Darkness (the new one), Eclipse Phase, Runequest, Savage Worlds... to name just a few.

I don't know about the other ones, but regarding WoD, it's actually "Exceptional Success" (not "Critical"). In this case, it is indeed the idea that, basically, your Character is so good that he is able to reach amazing results thanks to his level of skill... although luck is also a factor, with WoD's system of 8+ successes and 10R.

Dragoslav a écrit :It makes me wonder, what was the first game system to use critical hits/misses? Was it D&D? That would explain why so many systems (especially computer RPGs) copy its system for critical hits.

As far as I know, D&D was the first one to use a Critical Success / Failure system. Maybe it was inspired from another lesser-known game, but that, I don't know.

Clovis a écrit :

Murder-of-Crows a écrit :I know a number of games, where your skill directly influcences your chances for critical success and failure: World of Darkness (the new one), Eclipse Phase, Runequest, Savage Worlds... to name just a few.

I don't know about the other ones, but regarding WoD, it's actually "Exceptional Success" (not "Critical"). In this case, it is indeed the idea that, basically, your Character is so good that he is able to reach amazing results thanks to his level of skill... although luck is also a factor, with WoD's system of 8+ successes and 10R.

Well, leaving names aside, it basically is the same idea. You achive an extraordinary result. The statistics and mathematics of the WoD system are surprisingly sound.

Clovis a écrit :

Dragoslav a écrit :It makes me wonder, what was the first game system to use critical hits/misses? Was it D&D? That would explain why so many systems (especially computer RPGs) copy its system for critical hits.

As far as I know, D&D was the first one to use a Critical Success / Failure system. Maybe it was inspired from another lesser-known game, but that, I don't know.

I think the original game to feature critical success/failure was Runequest. Original D&D only had the idea of automatic failure and automatic success (1 and 20 respectively).

I too was thinking about this rule.

The ten over the difficulty works well, but he often will you be ten under unless you are trying something very very hard? Then you will never critically fail or fumble as we like to call it.

Hullo, folks, Murder-of-Crows,

I understand where you're coming from with this, MoC, and I don't see any reason why an alternative system can't be developed, I just want to comment on this somewhat.

Everyone needs to remember that the game is trying for a more realistic and gritty style, and the business of rolling Critcal Success or Failure here (as represented by two "10"s or two "1"s) is not a matter of skill excellence or ability, but skill luck. Skill excellence in the game is represented by a high Skill Level, which allows the character to beat and exceed higher Difficulty Levels. Not to mention, the higher the Skill Level, the more knowledgeable and skilled one is in the areas related to the Skill.

As one who has run the game in twelve sessions with two different gaming groups, I just want to say that the rules for this work really well as they are. If you want to use the system that you proposed instead, all I can say is that it seems more complicated than the existing game rules, and in my opinion that doesn't make the game any easier to play.

Just my 2 Ember Daols.

JohnK a écrit : As one who has run the game in twelve sessions with two different gaming groups, I just want to say that the rules for this work really well as they are. If you want to use the system that you proposed instead, all I can say is that it seems more complicated than the existing game rules, and in my opinion that doesn't make the game any easier to play.

Just my 2 Ember Daols.

Hi John,

I was actually hoping to hear your opinion on the topic, as it seems that you have run the game the most at the current point. Thanks for your opinion. I am going to seriously consider that and start playing with the rules as they stand.