Use of empathy in the rules of engagement

[Skywalker]

That is essentially it. If you read Empathy narrowly, then AssenG's logic holds. However, I think to do so is a distortion of how its intended to be read. Effectively, you are creating a limitation and then criticising the rules for the limitation you created.

Fortuitously or more likely by design, if you read Empathy more broadly the logic of rules as written holds. This also supports the idea of warriors who are aware of their opponent's thoughts and feelings, as well as the world around them, and are able to use this awareness to be better at combat.

[AssenG]

I think the discussion of Empathy here is missing the fact that just because you can sense someone's feelings, that doesn't mean you care. Historically, value systems have been extraordinarily varied: people have been able to do horrendous things because their values allowed them to justify their acts as being against targets who didn't 'count' as human or as being part of the natural order.

And that's just replacing Empathy with Conviction here, which was also suggested upthread.

That is essentially it. If you read Empathy narrowly, then AssenG's logic holds. However, I think to do so is a distortion of how its intended to be read. Effectively, you are creating a limitation and then criticising the rules for the limitation you created.

Skywalker, I thought you know me from RPG.net ?
If so, you would know that asking why something is the way it is and suggesting an alterntive, simply doesn't count as criticism with me.

Fortuitously or more likely by design, if you read Empathy more broadly the logic of rules as written holds. This also supports the idea of warriors who are aware of their opponent's thoughts and feelings, as well as the world around them, and are able to use this awareness to be better at combat.

Such awareness is part of learned combat skills, which you can develop separately from your Ways.
Really, guys, no option is disbalancing the system, and it doesn't look like we would persuade each other. So why don't we focus on the other questions in this thread instead ?

[Nelyhann]

and it doesn't look like we would persuade each other.

You think it looks like a discussion between a magientist, a demorthèn and a priest of temple about the meaning of life ?

[Arthus]

I agree with Nel!

For me the combat system runs correctly, and this is all I ask!

Furthermore, making empathy a part of the speed seems a logical choice to me.

I always interpreted it as a reading of the bodylanguage of the opponent. So you can guess what he'll do (when and where he'll strike), and strike precisely when the opponent's guard is down (or try! ). That explains that the fastest is the last to choose his combat attitude, and the first to strike.

I'ts the same mechanic with the other domains based on empathy, like relation or perception. In relations you use once again the reading of the bodylanguage to adapt your communication, and for perceptio empathy means attention.

In all these examples, emotions, feelings or conviction have nothing to do with the system. Because emotions, feelings and convictions are roleplaying.

[AssenG]

and it doesn't look like we would persuade each other.

You think it looks like a discussion between a magientist, a demorthèn and a priest of temple about the meaning of life ?

That's an apt comparison, indeed !

[Clovis]

Actually Arthus, Perception is based on Reason, since it's more about keeping your head clear and analyzing things that just feeling them.

Regarding Empathy for Speed, I'd also say it makes sense. After all, Speed in Esteren is not only about being the fastest, but also the first to strike efficiently, hence the fact that it works like an "Initiative" rating would. A fighter may very well be rather slow on his legs, and even fat, but be very deft and able to seize opportunities!

[Arthus]

Actually Arthus, Perception is based on Reason, since it's more about keeping your head clear and analyzing things that just feeling them.

Mea culpa! I Hadn't the book in sight. Thanks for the correction.

For the rest, I see we have the same reasonment (?), so it seems that our vision about the system is logical.

[AssenG]

Actually Arthus, Perception is based on Reason, since it's more about keeping your head clear and analyzing things that just feeling them.

Regarding Empathy for Speed, I'd also say it makes sense. After all, Speed in Esteren is not only about being the fastest, but also the first to strike efficiently, hence the fact that it works like an "Initiative" rating would. A fighter may very well be rather slow on his legs, and even fat, but be very deft and able to seize opportunities!

That, to me, is part of his combat skills, not Ways.
So yeah, your way to look at it is logical, I've never disputed that. And my way to look at it is equally logical, it jsut uses different assumptions.

[Gully]

I just want to add, that empathy in my mind is more than anything else, the ability to understand someone else's point of view.

Being able to put yourself in your opponent's shoes is a great strategic and tactical value, regardless of the competition. True of chess, table top games or combat. Many famous generals where clearly highly empathic.