Les Ombres d'Esteren - Forum officiel

I have a question for clarification, probably because I'm just being stupid. It's about how resolution rolls are listed in the SoE books.

On p.231 of the English edition of the Universe book (we need an abbreviation for that!), it says:

In the Shadows of Esteren books, when a Resolution roll is required, the required Domain is generally indicated by default. If a PC possesses a suitable Discipline in the Domain in question, she an use it, of course. ... When the Discipline is directly mentioned, it means that it is necessary for this type of action

So far, so good. If a Domain is listed, the PC can roll the Domain or one of its Disciplines, if she has it. If the Discipline is listed, you need it to be able to roll. But then it says, right after that:

However, except in particular cases, it is possible to attempt the action by using the rating of the associated Domain, when lacking a Discipline.

So if a Discipline is specifically listed in the book, do you need to have it to roll or can you default to the Domain? That last sentence seems to contradict the one before, which says the Discipline is "necessary". Or is the last sentence just a reiteration that that's not a very common case?

Thanks for your help.

Hullo, Ovid,

Ovid a écrit :I have a question for clarification, probably because I'm just being stupid. It's about how resolution rolls are listed in the SoE books.

<snipped>

So if a Discipline is specifically listed in the book, do you need to have it to roll or can you default to the Domain? That last sentence seems to contradict the one before, which says the Discipline is "necessary". Or is the last sentence just a reiteration that that's not a very common case?

I think the contradiction of the text in terms of this material is just a matter of the translation from French to English. Common sense tells me as a gamer that I would use the Discipline in most cases if I had it, otherwise I'd use the Domain itself.

Ovid a écrit : Thanks for your help.

My pleasure.

Ah, I remember being tripped up by that very same passage. It sounds to me like you can use your appropriate Domain score if you lack the specified Discipline.

JohnK a écrit :Hullo, Ovid,

I think the contradiction of the text in terms of this material is just a matter of the translation from French to English. Common sense tells me as a gamer that I would use the Discipline in most cases if I had it, otherwise I'd use the Domain itself.

It's correct.

Roll domain+disc if you have one matching. If you don't have a discipline, use the domain below. Without any point in the domain, roll only under ways.

iz

Thanks for the replies. That's clarified some things for me, but I think I expressed myself too complicatedly. I get that if you have a Discipline, you should use it. But, put simply:

If the text specifies a Discipline without saying I can default, do I need that Discipline or can I default to the Domain?

For example: the healing rules mention rolling Medicine. If I don't have Medicine, can I roll Science?

The repairing an artifact rules say I need to roll the Artifact Repair Discipline. If I don't have that, can I just roll Magience?

The second part of the original quote implies having the specific disciplines is necessary - no Discipline, no roll. The next one implies that they aren't and I can default.

(I know there are exceptions referred to in the last sentence as "particular cases", but in the Magience chapter, for example, it's the actions that allow defaults, like turning on and using an artifact, that get the explanations, whereas the repair rules just mention the Discipline without further comment. So I'm not sure how I recognise from the text when something's a particular case or not.)

Ovid a écrit : For example: the healing rules mention rolling Medicine. If I don't have Medicine, can I roll Science?

The repairing an artifact rules say I need to roll the Artifact Repair Discipline. If I don't have that, can I just roll Magience?

That's how I understand it.

Ovid a écrit : The second part of the original quote implies having the specific disciplines is necessary - no Discipline, no roll. The next one implies that they aren't and I can default.

(I know there are exceptions referred to in the last sentence as "particular cases", but in the Magience chapter, for example, it's the actions that allow defaults, like turning on and using an artifact, that get the explanations, whereas the repair rules just mention the Discipline without further comment. So I'm not sure how I recognise from the text when something's a particular case or not.)

I would assume that all cases where the rules ask for a Discipline check allow a player to roll a Domain check if he doesn't have points in that exact Discipline unless the text explicitly states that such a player is excluded from doing so.

The way I see it, if a text calls for a Domain check, then a player rolls that Domain and have the freedom to add in any relevant Discipline if the GL permits it; while a text that calls for a check on a specific Discipline only allows a roll for that exact Discipline or its corresponding Domain, not any other Disciplines or Domains aside from that.

Just to make sure that's clear, here are two examples I just made up:
GL: "Roll me an Erudition check to see what you know about the Magientist University."
Player: "Can I add my Magientist Principles Discipline? Or how about History?"
GL: "Sure."

GL: "Roll a Swim check to escape the river rapids before you get dashed upon the rocks."
Player: "Crap, I don't have Swimming. I'll just have to roll a Feats check and hope for the best."

Hullo, Ovid,

Ovid a écrit :Thanks for the replies. That's clarified some things for me, but I think I expressed myself too complicatedly. I get that if you have a Discipline, you should use it. But, put simply:

If the text specifies a Discipline without saying I can default, do I need that Discipline or can I default to the Domain?

Yes, as a general rule, you can default to the Domain relevant to the Discipline in question if you don't have the Discipline. There are a couple of specific instances where I could tell this doesn't apply, but to be honest, the general situation will come up more often, I suspect, so...

Dragoslav a écrit :The way I see it, if a text calls for a Domain check, then a player rolls that Domain and have the freedom to add in any relevant Discipline if the GL permits it; while a text that calls for a check on a specific Discipline only allows a roll for that exact Discipline or its corresponding Domain, not any other Disciplines or Domains aside from that.

Ah! So when the text says the Discipline is "necessary", it means you can't use any other Discipline, not that you can't roll at all. I completely missed that permutation. Many thanks!

Actually, I don't think there's a problem with the translation (yeah, look at who is saying that!) ; I have just read both the original text and the translated one, and the meaning is the same: generally speaking, you can use a Domain instead of a Discipline if you don't have the latter, but there are truly some cases in which the use of the Discipline mentioned is mandatory to be able to make a roll.

Here are two examples from Book 1:

- p.245, Lorn Rann and Liadh, §2, l.4: "To attempt using [the Oghamic art], the Demorthèn must possess the Discipline of the Sigil Rann"
- p.268, Mobile Flux Extractor, §2, l.4 to 6: "Only Magientists with the Flux Extraction or Flux Refining Discipline (according to what it is used for) can use it."

So as you can see, in some cases, having points in the Domain is just not enough; the Character must have specialized knowledge to be able to be proficient in the use of such aspects of his profession.
For example, not any Ionnthén can wield the power of the Ogham; one must have been initiated into the secrets of the Sigil Rann to be able to make use of them.