Questions about some Disciplines (and others)

[WoeRie]

Bonjour,

I'm new to this forum and to Shadows of Esteren as I'm one of the Kickstarter Backers. I'm a German, so English is not my native language, but one I can use for RPG games since more than 20 years. So, please excuse if something I write sounds a bit harsh or is not phrased correctly.

I'm currently working on an Excel spreadsheet for character creation. This is a process I do for all new games I bought and like to play, just to get into the rules and to help my players with creating their Chars. I will post it after it is finished.

But finally.... here are my questions regarding Disciplines/Domains:

1) In the rules very often a discipline called "Tumbling" is mentioned, but it does not appear in the Domains/Disciplines chapter. Is it missing somewhere or maybe renamed? If yes, is it a new Discipline in the Feats Domain? Or is it identical to the Discipline "Evasion" (and just a naming error)?

2) In the Domain Erudition there is a Discipline called Languages. Does it require specifying in one language and results that the character can speak that language in addition to their starting languages? Or is it meant to be a more general approach to languages like "Linguistic", to understand the origins and the similarities between different languages?

3) In the Domain Relation it says that "Etiquette" requires a specified "social environment". Maybe it is a problem with my English, but what do you mean with a Social Environment? Is it comparable to the Social Classes or does it mean "The Nobility in the palace of Osta-Baille"? Can you give me a complete list or maybe some examples for them?

4) Also in the Domain Relation it requires that Faction Knowledge is also specified. I think about Demorthèn, Magientists and the Temple. Can you give me some further examples of Factions, or can it be nearly everything like the "Peasants of the village of Buxtehude" are a faction as described here.

5) How do you call all the opposite Disadvantages? Do you call them "Opposite to Intuitive" or do you find nicer names for it? Is there a complete list of names for the Disadvantages? Maybe in French? Then we can try to rename them to English.

6) Ok, the last one is simply a rant... Why have you used the Imperial System instead of the Metric...? I really hate it! Most of all Fahrenheit, maybe I will create a second thread to get the REAL values of them from nice French people, who have the book with more useful measurements
But it is really sad for the VERY VERY nice book that I have to overwrite these strange numbers with a pencil to use it properly


So, please don't take point 6 (the Rant) too serious And I'm really looking forward to your answers for point 1-5.

Thanks!
Wolfram

[Deorman]

HI WoeRie and welcome to the Shadows.

I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my capabilities.

1) For the Tumbling discipline I think it's suposed to mean "acrobatics" from the domain "Feats".

2) I Think you can see the discipline Languages as linguistic, the disciplines are supposed to be more and more accurate as you upgrade them. So when you have Five points in erudition you can learn linguistic and when you get 10 points in linguistic you specialize in one language if you want to up further.

3) Etiquette is suposed to be used with people from bourgeois to nobles. When it's specified it requires a specified "social environment" it's simply to precise you can't use "Etiquette" on Burglars or Robbers which is common sense
(except if they are really rich or refined ones like… I don't know, lawyers or traders or cats.)

4) I think it's up to the player to come up with anything he sees as a faction, so long his GM thinks it's reasonable.

5) The opposite Disadvantage is nicely named but they are not listed in the book, you can come up with the name you see fit but the opposite of strong is weak, the opposite of colossal should be weakling. Your player can also imagines all kind of new advantages and disadvantages that are not listed as long as their GM allows it and specify the bonus and cost of these new advatages.

I Hope I have been helpful.

[Arthus]

Hello!

Just to answer to a specific point, here are some examples of other factions present in book 1 : universe :

- Hilderin Knights
- Bramble knights (chevaliers-ronce in French, there are informations about them in the section "travel and money" of the book)
- Order of the White Rose (section "temple", where the six ordres are described)
- Varigals
- Tarish
- occultists (section "rumors")
- Bards
- Children of Neven (anti-feonda faction)
- Merchant guilds (some examples are given in the book, but I don't remember where)

Voilà voilà...

[Deorman]

I'm not sure you can count occultists as a faction.
A faction is like a specific social organization and occultists have none.
I think the same things goes for bards and Varigals.
Regardings the Order of the White Rose it's a very little known faction so it seems hard to get knowledge about them.

[Arthus]

I think that such a discipline as "faction knowledge" can be used for occultists, bards or varigals.

Occultists have their specific vision of the world, their organisation (I imagine little groups of specialists), their network, and so on. All these knowledges can be grouped in the discipline "faction knowledge : occultists".

(True) Varigals and bards seems to have an organisation (which has a long and rich history), even if this organisation is not described in the book 1. The both organisations seems to have a (not necessarily written) code of conduct. The recruits are tested befere beeing fully accepted in the organisation and claim the official status of bard/varigal.

Furthermore, I think that bards and Varigals hide some secrets in their past, herited from the teachings of Arenthel.

So, I think that two disciplines "faction knowledge : Varigals" and "faction knowledge : bards" are justified.

Of course, you can imagine a "faction knowledge" discipline for every organisation or group which is important for your campaign.

For example, you can imagine a faction knowledge for the temple, in a classic campaign, or a faction knowledge for priests in a specific campaign based on political intrigues inside the temple.

I used the same system while playing at "Ars magica". Tests are easier if the competence is more specific. (ex : church lore is general, Military order is more specific, and Templars is even more specific. With a simple "church lore" test, you will have very few informations about the identity of the Senechal of the order based in Pamiers...)

[JohnK]

Hullo, Wolfram,
Salut, Wolfram,

Bonjour,
I'm new to this forum and to Shadows of Esteren as I'm one of the Kickstarter Backers. I'm a German, so English is not my native language, but one I can use for RPG games since more than 20 years. So, please excuse if something I write sounds a bit harsh or is not phrased correctly.

As one of the English speaking folks around here, I figured I'd give answering your message a try, though bear in mind I'm not an expert on the game as our French friends are. And trust me on this, with some of the French that I've posted here being sub-par, your English is pretty good!

I'm currently working on an Excel spreadsheet for character creation. This is a process I do for all new games I bought and like to play, just to get into the rules and to help my players with creating their Chars. I will post it after it is finished.

Look forward to seeing this when it's done, definitely.

But finally.... here are my questions regarding Disciplines/Domains:

I'll address these question by question, to the best of my ability...

1. No the Tumbling Discipline that's referred to is definitely not Evasion. I suspect that it's meant to likely be Acrobatics, but it could actually just be a separate Discipline under Feats called Tumbling, which would likely aid with falls and the like.

2. I have trouble taking the Language Discipline under Erudition as being equivalent to Linguistics myself. Given the phrase that is in brackets in the text with the Discipline, I always assumed that one had to take a specific Language as the actual Discipline, not the general/basic idea for a Language skill. I hope that one of the game designers comments on this, as it's an important distinction.

3. I would suggest that the Etiquette "social environment" refers to things like Commoner, Noble, Clergy, but I suspect that it would apply equally to things like Tarish, Talkerides, Gwidrites, Merchants, Traders, Varigals, and other specific groups that have expected ways of dealing with each other. Any group that has a form of behaviour and etiquette that goes along with them. Just my thought. If a player were to take "Nobility in Osta-Baille" rather than just Nobility, I would give them a penalty to dealing with other nobles than those in Osta-Baille. Just my thoughts on this.

4. Faction Knowledge would apply to Demorthèn, Magientists, and the Temple, as you suggest, but there are other potential factions out there, such as the Hilderin Knights, the Bramble Knights (in the Currency and Money section), and some of the Merchant Guilds. I think this is another one of those elements that is open to interpretation, but the French gamers on the forums will probably again, be better informed on this.

5. Ah, you mean what do you call the opposite of an Advantage.

In terms of naming them, this isn't all that difficult. Think in terms of the opposite, literally. Thus, the opposite of Strong is Weak, the opposite of Fast is Slow, the opposite of Huge or Large is Small, the opposite of Nimble is Clumsy, and so forth. I suspect that a lot of the time, common sense will be the best guide. That said, sometimes the best advice is to leave this up to the players and let them decide what the Disadvantage is, how it's defined, and what to call it.

If one compiles a list of these, we can put them all together and have a file made up or some such.

6. Just an observation on your last point, the rant. Personally, I prefer that fantasy rpgs use the Imperial system of measurement whereas science fiction rpgs use the Metric measurement system, so in that regard, I can't complain about this in Shadows of Esteren. Frankly, it comes down to the fact that I think of the Metric system in a science way, and fantasy rpgs aren't science based. That said, I could certainly see the Magientists using the Metric system, eh?

Anyway, I hope my thoughts and comments have been useful to you.

[JohnK]

Hullo, Deorman,

Just wanted to offer a thought on one thing that you mentioned here.

2) I Think you can see the discipline Languages as linguistic, the disciplines are supposed to be more and more accurate as you upgrade them. So when you have Five points in erudition you can learn linguistic and when you get 10 points in linguistic you specialize in one language if you want to up further.

The problem that I have with this one is very simple. Linguistics is the scientific study of language and its structure, and I think of the Discipline under Erudition as referring to the speaking, reading, and writing of languages. Therefore, I would use the Discipline to pick up specific languages. That said, I could see an academic of some sort picking up a Discipline called Linguistics under the Erudition Domain, but that would be separate from actually learning any specific languages, though it might give the character a bonus or two in doing so.

Now I could be wrong about this, and so hopefully someone on these forums who is more familiar with the rules and the intent of this Language Discipline business will correct me about this.

[Iris]

Hallo Woerie !

Wir können auch auf deutsch antworten, middenstens ich, ich habe aber nicht viel tränniert seid mein Erasmusjahr in Heidelberg . Es fällen mir auch ein paar techische Wörte, ich meine, allen die rolenspielen-vocabel...

So, wenn du ein bisschen Hilfe auf deutsch brauchst kannst du immerhin fragen

....

(Just to say that I can answer in french, english and german if necessary ... I just need a little training to be perfectly useful )


... (and for the questions, I think there are maybe enough answers ! )



Tschüss !

[Deorman]

THe thing is, there is not many Languages in Esteren.
So the use of some specific languages seems limited to me, that's why i Think linguistic which is a more general terms is bound to be choosen so the characters can have some comprehension of exotic language in any situation.

to Arthus, I should not debate here but I don' t see the Occultist as you do,
I Think they are as many vision of the world as there are occultist and that they all have a very personnal use of their talent and that they mind their own business.

As for the Bards, it is a profession but they are not organized for one specific purpose in the peninsula, they don't have common goal or structure, they all have different interest.

For both Bards and occultist you may find some organisations with a common interest suited to be known as a Faction, but you can't use the term Faction for the whole profession as you can't use the term faction for "knights" or "nobles".

The varigals on the contrary do have a common code, but their organisation is also discreet, so it's not suposed to be a common knowledge anyone good in relation can access.

[JohnK]

Hullo, Deorman,

THe thing is, there is not many Languages in Esteren.
So the use of some specific languages seems limited to me, that's why i Think linguistic which a more general terms is bound to be choose so the characters can have some comprehension of exotic language in any situation.

You make an excellent point here about matters, so that raises a question in the context of the game material we are discussing: What are the languages spoken in the Three Kingdoms?