Questions about some Disciplines (and others)

[Deorman]

I think all kingdoms share the same tri-kazelian language.

But there must be an ancient tri-kazelian language, Tarish have also their own language and their is probably a language from the continent.
Both of them are rarely spoken and are probably mostly forgotten except for the Tarish who preserve their culture.

[iznurda]

Hi !

Some month ago we had a discussion about languages (here in french). Here is my resume and conception :
The simple way :

• The languages actually used in peninsula are :
• Tarish
• continental : come with Jamian people and magientists.
• osag : used by osag people.
• anciant language : used by demorthèns and osags.

I my mind it's a bit more complicated : originally was the ancient language, a language of power, used by demorthèns in their arts. People spoke creag (the name of peninsula before the three kingdoms), an usual version without power of the anciant language but very similar.
After Aergewin the use of the ancient language decreases, and his mastery. Creag evolves. With the 3 immigrations (tarish people, Jamian's fellowers and magientists) creag blended with tarish and continental language to evolve in tri-kazelian, the actual common languages.

• So the uses of languages are :
• Tarish language : only used by tarish people. They always try to preserve their culture but they increasingly sedentary. With time tri-kazell will assimilate all of them. No writing form known. Tarish's sounds and rhythms are very different from the tri-kazelian.
• Temple's language : a liturgic version of the continental language. Used in religious literature and linked to the cult. Writre and speak in Gwidre and in the Temple faction.
• Continental language : only used by academics and magientists. Majoritary in Reizh. Writing and speaking in academics, magientist faction and the old continental nobility.
• tri-kazelian : the common language. Used in all tri-kazell (the default language). Writing form. All the three kingdoms have their own variation of the tri-kazelian (dialects, accents, expressions, etc.)
• osag : the natural evolution of the creag without assimilation of tarish and continental terms. A primary form of creag is used during celebrations and protocol. It's why we say they use ancient language. It's wrong but it's hard to make a distinction. Exist an oghamic writing form.
• the ancient langage : used by demorthèn with sigil rann and liadh. Exist a wrote form (lorn rann) in oghams.

The languages discipline now. Myself I estimate a PJ with 0 in erudition as analphabetic. With 5 he can speak, wrote and read with ease. Discipline are :

• knowledge in other language. For example a magientist with 5 in erudition and 5 in continental can speak, write and read both of them.
• with more than 5 in a language we arrive in the academic sphere : literary culture, linguistic, local variations.

What about the tri-kazelian in that case ? Well it's probably the PJ's natural language. With 5 in tri-kazelian he know all the variation used in the two other kingdom. Example : a bard from taol-kaer with 3 in tri-kazelian can speak like a reizhian and know some idioms from Gwidre.

About discipline, more globally, you can freely create some, if you need. The core rules are very flexible to enable leaders adapt them to their needs.

About faction it's the same : every group wich can be easilly identify suit. That include military people, nobilics, merchants, tarishs, guildmate, members of a communauty, etc.

If you want, we can try to made a convertion table between the two metrics systems

Hope be usefull,

iz

[Clovis]

Hello WoeRie... and everyone else who participated in the thread as well, of course.

As the translator of the book, I'll try to give the most concise and definite answers possible:

1) "Tumbling" not being present in the list of Disciplines is a translation mistake. It was labeled as "Acrobatics" in the "Feats" Domain. This will be corrected in future editions of the book.

2) My position would be that the "Languages" Discipline allows you to specialize in the study of one specific foreign language (of which iznurda gave a quite exhaustive list in the previous post). You can therefore have several "Language" Disciplines, such as, for example, "Language: Continental (9)" and "Language: Ancient Tongue (7)".

However, as a GL, you are free to do as you deem right: if "Languages" seems more of a "Linguistics" Discipline for you, that is a way of understanding and applying this Discipline. There is no absolute conception.

3) I would say JohnK has the right of it: "Etiquette" is not to be restricted to the nobility only. An "Etiquette: Thieves" or "Etiquette: Army" Discipline would be perfectly valid in my opinion. It is up to the PC taking this Discipline to define what his Character's savviness applies to. Likewise, it is the GL's task to set the limits of such possibilities: "Etiquette: Varigals" would make sense, but "Etiquette: Fighters" would be too broad.

4) Basically, this Discipline covers the three main factions of the universe (Demorthèn, Temple, Magientists). However, other factions can be picked, at the Player's choice, such as Neven's Children (p.39), as Arthus mentioned. As long as the chosen group can be defined as a more or less well-defined society with its rules and taboos, it can be valid for this Discipline.

5) There is no exhaustive list for Disadvantages ; it is up to the Player taking one to find a fitting name for it ("Impressionable" for the opposite of "Strong Mind", or "Dull" for the opposite of "Intuitive", for example).

6) Believe me, converting everything to the Imperial System was a major pain in the ass. However, since the United States were to be the primary place for the exportation of Shadows of Esteren, this is what we went with. To tell you the truth, we have even thought about adding a conversion chart at the end of the book, but decided not to in order not to alter the initial aspect of the book.


There you have it; hope that helps! Once more, remember that what I have given you is the "official" answer. As it is said in the book: if something does not work for you, change it! Do not feel obligated to strictly stick to the book's rules.

[JohnK]

Hullo, Clovis,

I see this was your first post! Welcome to the Esteren forums! We're so glad to have you along for the ride. It was a pleasure to meet you at GenCon, mon ami.

Just a couple of comments on what you said...

1) "Tumbling" not being present in the list of Disciplines is a translation mistake. It was labeled as "Acrobatics" in the "Feats" Domain. This will be corrected in future editions of the book.

There are going to be future editions of the book?

2) My position would be that the "Languages" Discipline allows you to specialize in the study of one specific foreign language (of which iznurda gave a quite exhaustive list in the previous post). You can therefore have several "Language" Disciplines, such as, for example, "Language: Continental (9)" and "Language: Ancient Tongue (7)".

However, as a GL, you are free to do as you deem right: if "Languages" seems more of a "Linguistics" Discipline for you, that is a way of understanding and applying this Discipline. There is no absolute conception.

Personally, I can see a Linguistics Discipline in etiher the Erudition or Science Skill. I will likely use that in the Erudition Skill, separate from Languages Discipline.

3) I would say JohnK has the right of it: "Etiquette" is not to be restricted to the nobility only. An "Etiquette: Thieves" or "Etiquette: Army" Discipline would be perfectly valid in my opinion. It is up to the PC taking this Discipline to define what his Character's savviness applies to. Likewise, it is the GL's task to set the limits of such possibilities: "Etiquette: Varigals" would make sense, but "Etiquette: Fighters" would be too broad.

You make a good point here. Would you allow Etiquette: Bramble Knights as well?

6) Believe me, converting everything to the Imperial System was a major pain in the ass. However, since the United States were to be the primary place for the exportation of Shadows of Esteren, this is what we went with. To tell you the truth, we have even thought about adding a conversion chart at the end of the book, but decided not to in order not to alter the initial aspect of the book.

I'm glad you didn't. That would have taken away another page of the book. Besides, those who use Metric (and being in Canada, I am one of these) can easily find conversions from Imperial to Metric and vice versa on the internet.

[WoeRie]

Many thanks again! I will update my Excel sheet soon!

1) "Tumbling" not being present in the list of Disciplines is a translation mistake. It was labeled as "Acrobatics" in the "Feats" Domain. This will be corrected in future editions of the book.

Does that mean "Acrobatics" will be renamed to "Tumbling" -OR- "Tumbling" will be renamed to "Acrobatics"?

2) My position would be that the "Languages" Discipline allows you to specialize in the study of one specific foreign language (of which iznurda gave a quite exhaustive list in the previous post). You can therefore have several "Language" Disciplines, such as, for example, "Language: Continental (9)" and "Language: Ancient Tongue (7)".
However, as a GL, you are free to do as you deem right: if "Languages" seems more of a "Linguistics" Discipline for you, that is a way of understanding and applying this Discipline. There is no absolute conception.

Perfect, I think I prefer this way to give players the possibility to learn an additional language. In addition I will allow "Language: Linguistic" to cover the general aspects.

5) There is no exhaustive list for Disadvantages ; it is up to the Player taking one to find a fitting name for it ("Impressionable" for the opposite of "Strong Mind", or "Dull" for the opposite of "Intuitive", for example).

My problem is that I'm not a native speaker, that makes it partially quite complicated And it's because of the Excel sheet, to be honest I was not aware that "Dull" is the opposite of Intuitive. Maybe others who use the Excel sheet could give me hints if they see invalid namings for the disadvantages.

6) Believe me, converting everything to the Imperial System was a major pain in the ass. However, since the United States were to be the primary place for the exportation of Shadows of Esteren, this is what we went with. To tell you the truth, we have even thought about adding a conversion chart at the end of the book, but decided not to in order not to alter the initial aspect of the book.

Yes, I belive you!!! I have no problem with converting most of it on the fly (3' = 1m, 1'' ~ between 1 and 2 cm, 2 pounds = 1kg), but I somehow did not expected it that it will be translated from a France game system. If a US game is tanslated to German, they nearly never translate the system to metric.
Oh, and the only translation I'm unable to do on the fly is Fahrenheit to Celcius (or Kelvin). this is a really crazy conversion and has to be done BEFORE the game starts!

[Clovis]

I'm glad to be there as well, Johnk! However, I must shamefully say that I do not distinctly remember meeting at Gen Con... which is actually not much of a surprise: combine my poor memory with the high number of people I met there, and you can easily understand why I am not able to put a face to every name.

Anyway, regarding your answers:

1)
JohnK: Well, obviously, if all the copies of Book 1 are sold and there is still a demand for more, we'll go for another print run! In this case, we'll take care to apply all the necessary changes and corrections.

WoeRie: "Tumbling" will be renamed to "Acrobatics". The meaning is obviously very similar, but for uniformization purposes, "Acrobatics" is the canonical term.

2)
JohnK & WoeRie: These are perfectly valid applications, so feel free to do so! After all, the system is a toolbox, not absolute notions.

3)
JohnK: Obviously, since the Bramble knights form a very distinct organization.

5)
WoeRie: Well, as long as you understand the meaning of each Advantage, that's not a problem. Just choose names that seem the most obvious and distinct for the corresponding Disadvantages.

6)
JohnK: Good to know you're taking this well!

WoeRie: Yeah, I know, some differences can truly be crazy, and gave me a migraine more than once! The most obvious way (although not the handiest, I'll grant you that) to solve this would be to have a calculator ready during games. I am aware how painstakingly difficult that can be, but I am sure you understand why it had to be done this way.

[JohnK]

Hullo, WoeRie,

Just some thoughts on a couple of your comments.

1) "Tumbling" not being present in the list of Disciplines is a translation mistake. It was labeled as "Acrobatics" in the "Feats" Domain. This will be corrected in future editions of the book.

Does that mean "Acrobatics" will be renamed to "Tumbling" -OR- "Tumbling" will be renamed to "Acrobatics"?

Based on Clovis's answer, "Tumbling" will be re-named to "Acrobatics" in the text, since there is an Acrobatics Discipline listed in the Feats Domain. Personally, I think that Tumbling could be a Discipline by itself, useful for reducing damage from falls and the like, but that's just me and my game.

5) There is no exhaustive list for Disadvantages ; it is up to the Player taking one to find a fitting name for it ("Impressionable" for the opposite of "Strong Mind", or "Dull" for the opposite of "Intuitive", for example).

My problem is that I'm not a native speaker, that makes it partially quite complicated And it's because of the Excel sheet, to be honest I was not aware that "Dull" is the opposite of Intuitive. Maybe others who use the Excel sheet could give me hints if they see invalid namings for the disadvantages.

Part of the problem you're likely to have with this aspect of character creation is that it does get complicated by the not being a native (i.e., English?) speaker. However, it's more than that. Dull is merely one way that could be the opposite of Intuitive. It depends on how the GL and player decide the opposite will be framed and will be meant. Rational could just as easily be the opposite of Intuitive when using a word to describe it. This will make things definitely interesting and at times amusing or frustrating, I suspect. As GL, it's your call of course, unless the player in question gives you a really good reason for calling it whatever they want to call it.

Anyway, these are just my two Ember Daols.

[JohnK]

Hullo, Clovis,

I'm glad to be there as well, Johnk! However, I must shamefully say that I do not distinctly remember meeting at Gen Con... which is actually not much of a surprise: combine my poor memory with the high number of people I met there, and you can easily understand why I am not able to put a face to every name.

Yes, I can certainly understand that. To refresh your memory, I was the first person who came to the booth on the Thursday morning, and wanted to buy the whole run of Esteren products because I had missed the Kickstarter. Ah, well, at least Nel remembers who I am. I hope.

Anyway, regarding your answers:

1)
JohnK: Well, obviously, if all the copies of Book 1 are sold and there is still a demand for more, we'll go for another print run! In this case, we'll take care to apply all the necessary changes and corrections.

Ah, okay... I had just wondered about that, in the context that you mentioned. I'll be sending you a PM about stuff pertaining to the translation when I get a chance, as there's a couple of things I want to talk to you about there.

3)
JohnK: Obviously, since the Bramble knights form a very distinct organization.

I really wasn't sure about them, since while I can see some organisational elements in the write-up (such as it is about them), it needed some clarification in my mind.

5)
WoeRie: Well, as long as you understand the meaning of each Advantage, that's not a problem. Just choose names that seem the most obvious and distinct for the corresponding Disadvantages.

This would pretty much be my judgement on the matter, as a GL, too.