Combat Stats - Fighting PCs almost always hit?

[Clovis]

I wonder why creators include this options... They can be easily removed from start.

Well, by itself, each option does not make a Character super powerful... it is by combining them that you make a killing machine. It is very hard to avoid such issues without making a very restrictive system or checking every single detail before releasing.

By the way eserday I had reading Book I with my cat and cup of tea and found that wounds penalties apply to Defense too...

Indeedy. Actually, they may even apply to Speed... and to other rolls too! It's up to the GL according to how hardcore he/she wants the game to be. For example, wound penalties can apply to all rolls, including mental and social ones, the rationale being that it's harder for the Character to focus on what he/she is doing.

[Yepesnopes]

Hello all,

I am new here. I find the game excellent, soon I am going to start playing by post with my friends. I already went through Book 1, but before I start with book 2 I will start playing, I cannot wait

Wait, the thread is about combat! I find the combat system very good, actually it is very similar to the one in Ars Magica, even with similar values of Attack and Defense coming into play. The only thing I am not super fan of is the weapons and armours part of the game. I have the feeling they don't have enough impact as compared to the Attack roll - Defense part of the equation. I am working on an adaptation of the weapons and armours of the game more in line with the Ars Magica 5th edition. That is weapons do more damage per se, but armours protect also more (conversion goes around a factor 2 more or less from one game to the other). In terms of game it does not change too much unless you go unarmoured of course. I will also include some penalties to speed due to wearing armour.

Cheers,
Yepes

[iznurda]

Hi !

I understand your point of view but during my campaign I was very surprised about the impact of armour. The system is gritty and is oriented more towards the roleplay that towards the simulation. I suggest you to test the game without personnal rules, at least the time of an adventure. In fact, fighting should be the last solution - the fights are very lethal. It is like a Call of Cthulhu party : fighting is NEVER a good idea.

With hindsight I think skills are more important in a fight than the equipment : a sword is nothing but a steel rod if you do not know how to use. This is the same with armours : an armoured scholar do not became a warrior the sole ground to wear plate armor. Weapons and protection are only tools.

However, if you finish your conversion, do not hesitate to share it on the forum (in the system part) because it might interest other players/leaders.

iz

[Ahriman42]

You assume that "high level" scholars will have lots of money to buy chainmail and such, will be able to wear their chainmail at all times, and that they won't get knocked out by poison gas from a feond plant monster and wake up somewhere stripped naked and tied up upside-down while a morcail readies to drain their blood to awaken He Who Isnt Very Nice At All.

Given that, i do think that it'd be nice to have a "rules supplement" at some point down the line that adds some extra mechanics for those who want to use them. I've already considered doing up some combat "maneuvers" (1/combat tricks that you can buy like a discipline, that do things like knock an opponent down, give them a speed or defense penalty, or force them to change their stance). Maybe an armor-using skill wouldn't be a terrible idea; it takes training and conditioning to move and fight in heavy plate.

My experience of running the game is that its very easy for players to "accidentally" make Close Combat Monsters that can wipe out solo creatures very quickly; while I agree that combats should be quick and deadly, I'm a sucker for horriffic creature boss encounters, and I've had to give such creatures some non-RAW abilities to make things suitably dramatic.

[Clovis]

You assume that "high level" scholars will have lots of money to buy chainmail and such, will be able to wear their chainmail at all times, and that they won't get knocked out by poison gas from a feond plant monster and wake up somewhere stripped naked and tied up upside-down while a morcail readies to drain their blood to awaken He Who Isnt Very Nice At All.

"He Who Isnt Very Nice At All" sure sounds like a great name for a BBEG!

Given that, i do think that it'd be nice to have a "rules supplement" at some point down the line that adds some extra mechanics for those who want to use them. I've already considered doing up some combat "maneuvers" (1/combat tricks that you can buy like a discipline, that do things like knock an opponent down, give them a speed or defense penalty, or force them to change their stance). Maybe an armor-using skill wouldn't be a terrible idea; it takes training and conditioning to move and fight in heavy plate.

Our focus is actually more on supplements that expand the universe, create new plot hooks, detail locations, give historical details, etc. rather than provide additional rules. We have always aimed for the rules to remain light, so that Shadows of Esteren may primarily remain a game of atmosphere, and releasing a rules supplement would go against this purpose.

However, as always, it is always possible for the community to work on such additions, for the benefit of Players who'd like the game to be playable with a more complete and complex set of rules!

[Yepesnopes]

Here it goes my attempt of weapons and armours Esteren, it is blatantly copy pasted from Ars Magica 5. The goal is to give weapons and armors more impact in the game.

It still needs some more testing. I have just ran combat examples between npcs and it looks fine, that is as long as you are properly equipped for a fight. If you enter a fight unarmored and with a dagger, planning to face a warrior with a sword & shield and chain mail, expect to be totally obliterated unless you are way more skilled than him.

Init: A value added to the Speed of the character to determine the Order of action
Atk: A value added to the Attack rating of the character
Def: A value added directly to the Defence rating of the character
Dam: A value added to the Margin of success (Attack rating + D10 - Defence) to calculate the damage inflicted by the attack. Damage = Margin of success + Dam
Prot: A value subtracted to the Damage to calculate amount of Health lost. Health lost = Damage - Prot
Load: I still have to figure out how to adapt this value to Shadows of Esteren. It is basically a value I want to use to represent the armour hindering the characters.

Cheers,
Yepes

[Clovis]

I'm personally okay with the weapons' stats being as they are, since in my opinion, it's mostly the fighter's skill that will determine how deadly he is with a weapon in hand, instead of the weapon itself. Moreover, the weapons just having a "Damage" rating helps keep things simple.

However, your suggestions will undoubtedly prove useful for GMs who wish for a more detailed and complex approach. Thanks for your contribution!

[Yepesnopes]

I'm personally okay with the weapons' stats being as they are, since in my opinion, it's mostly the fighter's skill that will determine how deadly he is with a weapon in hand, instead of the weapon itself. Moreover, the weapons just having a "Damage" rating helps keep things simple.

I agree! More or less

The problem I have with the system as it is, is that a skilled fighter (or not so skilled) can damage with his fists or with his knife someone in plate armour, damage and win a fight. That is more difficult for me to swallow. For example let's have the following fighters:

F1 a seasoned warrior:
Atk rating: 15
Def rating: 16
Knife (Dam: 1)
Naked (Prot: 0)

Against

F2 a decent warrior
Atk rating: 12
Def rating: 13
Sword (Dam 3)
Plate&shield (Prot: 5)

This fight, following the system RAW, is incredibly tight, both have similar chances of victory, while in a more realistic (for those who care) way F1 should not stand a chance against F2.

That is what drives me to home brew armour stats and hence weapon stats. My first approach has been to copy Ars Magica 5 since it uses nearly identical combat rating values and a "similar" health system. But indeed, it may be that at the end I remove all stats for weapons but the damage values. In this case I will have to adjust the damage values though.

Cheers,
Yepes

[Clovis]

Your example is pretty extreme, since I don't think it would be likely to occur during a game session, but I get your point: someone who is well-equipped should have no problem getting the upper hand against someone who is not.

However, my point of view (granted, I am only a neophyte in fighting) is that the experienced fighter will be able to strike deftly at his opponent's weak points, taking advantage of his weaknesses, pushing him around and stabbing where he can to injure his foe. Of course, the decent warrior will be very well protected (hence the -5 to dmg), but he won't be invulnerable.

[James Harrison]

I'm not convinced by all the extra from the Ars Magica weapons - Notably a non-combat character grabbing a maul it pretty deadly; that +6 accuracy turns a Way of combativeness 1, Close combat 1 character into someone with +8 to hit...

They stand a reasonable chance of hitting a foe (Hitting def 14 half the time)... and then will do a staggering amount of damage! Wile they might be only doing +1 damage to someone in plate, that's dangerous for a non-combat character...

Basically I think keeping the light system of weapon just having Damage, and Armour just protection is right. Or maybe some play in speed etc. is good, but probably not for attack and defence numbers.

As for load type calculations - I would imagine having a flat penalty to physical activities (like wound pen.) would work well; meaning plate is more cumbersome than leather... perhaps to speed and Feat rolls, or something like that.