Combat Stats - Fighting PCs almost always hit?

[ThePat]

Hi SoE forum,

just started my SoE experience by reading through Book 0 and joining this forum. Browsed the existing Game System threads and did not find any discussion on a - at least at first sight - very significant system implication:

Characters seem to have a defense stat of around 9-13. At the same time, the more combat oriented characters have attack stats 0f 10 or higher (Arven 11 Longsword, Ean 10 with his bow). So barring a natural "1", this is a 90% hit chance for most attacks. So the question for such characters is not IF they hit, but HOW HARD the hit/wound.

I figure this is on purpose, but combined with the relatively harsh healing rules (and wound penalties potentially also applying to Defense (?)) this translates into a rapid death spiral.

So for those more experienced with the system:
a) Have I missed some rule or misinterpreted?
b) If not, how much of an issue is this rule in actual play?

Thanks for your feedback.
ThePat

[Clovis]

You're not mistaken: the more the Characters become experience in combat, the deadlier they become, and very visibly so! However, along with this fact, there are several things to take into account:

1) Combat in Esteren is meant to be quick and dangerous. A powerfully-built, battle-hardened veteran will be able to cleave your head with a solid ax blow... which is pretty realistic, when you think about it.

2) Don't forget that Protection must also be taken into account during combat, which can make combat perceptibly less deadly.

3) Finally, don't forget that Defense can be improved according to the system, and at costs that are rather balanced with the ones for improving Close Combat!

So yeah, good fighters will be able to kill their opponents quickly, but I don't consider that much of an issue. It drives home the point that no one can be invincibly powerful in Esteren. Even the best fighter in the world can be killed with a sword through the chest!

Personally, so far, I did not really have much opportunities to portray fights between very powerful fighters, but I think that between the possibility to improve Defense and the basic premise that fighting is deadly, it works well in the end.

P.S: Yes, wound penalties apply to Defense and Speed as well!

[Mythweaver]

I am really impressed with the fast, hard hitting, combat system. It will ensure that the player's will explore their roleplaying options before engaging every potential opponent they meet. It increases the importance of social skills and team work. In a world where even the smallest cut can fester and possibly kill you, avoiding a fight should be everyone's primary option.

Thank you for bringing such an interesting concept to North America.

Mythweaver

[The Mad Hatter]

This is one of the things that really draws me to Shadows! I like the fact that combat is deadly serious, and shouldn't be looked upon as just another hack and slash session.

This is one of the things that drew me to the original Legend of the Five Rings gaming system, combat was brutal, on top of that healing isn't "drink a healing potion" and you're done type thing.

I think this is one of those things that defines a system - what sort of player are you, someone who wants to partake in dungeon crawling adventure with the potential for encounter after encounter or someone who wants a system where characters truly risk dying in every encounter. Neither is better or worse, just different - and people I've found generally tend to prefer one type of game or another.

[Clovis]

I think this is one of those things that defines a system - what sort of player are you, someone who wants to partake in dungeon crawling adventure with the potential for encounter after encounter or someone who wants a system where characters truly risk dying in every encounter. Neither is better or worse, just different - and people I've found generally tend to prefer one type of game or another.

That's true! Generally speaking, I tend to be more of a grim & gritty aficionado, but I do enjoy an epic, awesomely unrealistic battle every now and then! In the end, it all depends on the game universe, but also on who you're playing with.

Personally, when I GM Shadows of Esteren, I do my best to stress the deadly aspect of fighting by making detailed, colorful descriptions. After all, you will probably exchange only two or three blows with your opponent before the fight reaches an end (either because one of the fighters will give up, or because one of them will be dead), so it makes all the more sense to give weight to each blow!

[Valenae]

There are other problem in combat.

Non-fighting PC (NPC) almost always miss.

Also PC can invest all his experience in defence and become nearly immortal in combat.

Some party members are nonfingtng characters. They Attack is about 4 or 6.
They have problem to hit even Defence 12.
Combat between that two characters become too bored. They cannot hit eah other...

I will try to use homerule in next few games that natural 10 deals minimum 5 dmg. This gives for example chance to several peasants to kill armored knight.

[Clovis]

Well, it makes sense that non-fighting Characters won't be able to do much in combat, doesn't it? Likewise, a Character who has invested all of his XPs in Close Combat and Shooting & Throwing will remain unskilled in Travel, Natural Environment, and Relation, and will therefore not be able to get their bearings, survive in the middle of nature, or properly interact with other people.

Similarly, a PC who has been putting all his/her bets on Defense will never be able to hit in combat, and will remain untrained in many very useful skills such as Feats or Perception.

[Valenae]

Well, it makes sense that non-fighting Characters won't be able to do much in combat

Why they have so good defence then (and can have even maximum defence of 14)?

The problem is that this possibility (to make unbeatable character) exist.

Also there are problem with armor.
Almost any scolar can sooner or later afford chain mail or even plate mail. And can use it without any game penalties!

The root of problem that system made with traditional DnD principles, but trying to look as indy. As a result there are some problems with balance. And in game often players ask questions "Why I cannot do it?" and I have to answer "Sorry, dude, rules are light and this is not simulationist combat - you cannot do it..."

It is really sad as system have lots of good ideas and potentials!

[Clovis]

Why they have so good defence then (and can have even maximum defence of 14)?

We've gone with the idea that staying out of harm's way can be mostly governed my instinct and reflexes, while actually fighting someone (that is facing a foe with the actual intent to harm or even kill) requires training and experience.

The problem is that this possibility (to make unbeatable character) exist.

Like in many role-playing games, doesn't it?
In D&D, if you choose the right Feats, you can make a Character who will deal several hundreds of damage points by charging... at level 5.
In WoD, Fighting Styles like Marksmanship make it possible to one-shot an opponent.
In Warhammer, Shadow magic can make you invincible (as long as you remain in shadows) and makes it possible to dish out enough damage to kill most humain beings.

My point is that you'll always be able to distort the rules to make an uber-powerful Character in a role-playing game.

Also there are problem with armor.
Almost any scolar can sooner or later afford chain mail or even plate mail. And can use it without any game penalties!

The root of problem that system made with traditional DnD principles, but trying to look as indy. As a result there are some problems with balance. And in game often players ask questions "Why I cannot do it?" and I have to answer "Sorry, dude, rules are light and this is not simulationist combat - you cannot do it..."

It is really sad as system have lots of good ideas and potentials!

As I have mentioned in the past, we did not intend for Esteren's game system to be complete and faultless; just to provide stable enough ground to build your Character and play him/her in a satisfying way. Of course there are flaws and loopholes, but it's then up to the GLs how they would like to plug such holes.

Some of them will be fine with the vague bits, while some others will want to make it as complete and solid as possible. Both options can work, really.

[Valenae]

My point is that you'll always be able to distort the rules to make an uber-powerful Character in a role-playing game.

Its true....
I wonder why creators include this options... They can be easily removed from start.

By the way eserday I had reading Book I with my cat and cup of tea and found that wounds penalties apply to Defense too...