Pronunciation of setting specific terms

[Fairy Tale]

Hello together,

after reading the excellent Book 1 (one of the best rpg books I've read in the last years) and half of Book 0, I have a little problem with the pronunciation of some of the terms.

Because of the french origin of Shadows of Esteren it seems to me to be wrong to pronounce words like Varigal, Demorthén, Gwidre, Reizh and all the other setting specific terms in english. I tried it in french, but with my very bad skill in french it sounds rather weird.

Is there any list with the phonetic transcription of all the terms?

Greetings,
Fairy Tale

[Daïn]

hi,
First of all, be reassured that we french (or at least, me ^^) also struggle to pronounce the words properly ... well, as intended by the authors. Remembering all the terms is indeed a challenge.

Something that strikes me is that the vocabulary is supposed to celtic-ish ... which is not french at all.
The french "a" is barely pronounceable by english people, for instance, and I see where you may have some issues.

As far as I know, there is no proper phonetic gllossary anywhere, except the one found at the end of book 0, about page 284. The problem I see with phonetics is that not everyone may be able to read them, I think. We can probably make something up still

I propose you to write some of them down here so then we'll be able to discuss a bit more. What do you reckon?

[Fairy Tale]

hi,
First of all, be reassured that we french (or at least, me ^^) also struggle to pronounce the words properly ... well, as intended by the authors. Remembering all the terms is indeed a challenge.

Okay, that gives me some hope.

Something that strikes me is that the vocabulary is supposed to celtic-ish ... which is not french at all.

This would have been my next suggestion.

The french "a" is barely pronounceable by english people, for instance, and I see where you may have some issues.

Coming from Germany I'm not an english native speaker, so I don't have these problems. Therefore I have others.

As far as I know, there is no proper phonetic gllossary anywhere, except the one found at the end of book 0, about page 284.

Good to know.

The problem I see with phonetics is that not everyone may be able to read them, I think.

Some time ago I saw some phonetics in an rpg rulebook to explain the pronunciation of some difficult words. It was a nice idea that helps a lot, but I don't remember which book it was.

We can probably make something up still

I propose you to write some of them down here so then we'll be able to discuss a bit more. What do you reckon?

That's a good idea. But not before the weekend.

[Daïn]

I know very little about german unfortunately (unlike Iris) but, since I'm living in switzerland, I'm a quite aware of the german specific phonems. I'm sure we'll end up with something very interesting.
WE is in 4 days, so I'll see if I can find some time to write some of the words down by then.

[Clovis]

Hi Fairy Tale, and thank you very much for your praise regarding the book!

Regarding the pronunciation, I'll level with you: there were initially indications about that in the original version of the book, but after much efforts and discussion with the proofreaders, I decided not to include them in the English version. Why? Because we felt that it did not have much use all things considered: phonetics is something complicated to wield and understand, and my opinion was therefore that it would not be of much use to most players. Moreover, since these words are inspired from Gaelic, which has now almost entirely fallen into disuse, it did not seem like a problem to me to let everyone see which pronunciation seemed good.

Of course, if there is a lot of demand regarding this point, this may be reconsidered, but as things are, I really don't think it is of prime importance. However, don't hesitate to give your opinion on the subject Fairy Tale, and even to work on phonetic indications, should you feel inspired to do so! If it can be of use to the community, then I'm all for it.

[Dragoslav]

I am SO glad someone asked about this. This was actually going to be one of my first questions on the boards, but I never got around to asking about it.

Clovis, I think it would be great to have a phonetics guide. Is the original written with IPA or just with a casual phonetic representation of certain words (like showing "representation (reh-prih-zin-TAY-shun))? Either way, although linguistics isn't my specialty, I've studied it enough to be able to read some IPA and just, in general, have a good grasp of understanding languages. I assume that, as a translator, you probably know a lot about it, too, so there are probably enough of us on here who could make such a phonetics guide more intelligible to those who aren't familiar with it.

For my personal experience with reading through the Esteren books, I noticed that most of the words seem to be inspired by or drawn from Irish-Gaelic, so I've been teaching myself how to read that (using this site http://www.standingstones.com/gaelpron.html). However, some of the words, in their orthography and use of accent marks, seem to be inspired from Scots-Gaelic or even Welsh, which only confuses things even farther. After agonizing over the pronunciation of certain words (biggest offenders: "Mor Roimh" and "Demorthen"), I decided that, when I can't figure out the exact proper way to pronounce something, to just go with the closest approximation that "sounds cool."

Fairy Tale, why don't you post some words that you're having trouble with, and we can all post our interpretations?

[Clovis]

The original is written with casual phonetic representation. For example, "Rindath" is indicated as "rine-dasse", and "Saoghal-Dheir" as "sa-o-gale dé-ire". And to tell the truth, phonetic transcription has never been my forte: I'm much apter at absorbing vocabulary and making use of it! However, I'm disposed to support any efforts of transcription the best I can.

Casual representation seems like the best way to go to me: I know it was used by White Wolf ("Lancea Sanctum" is indicated as "LAN-kay-uh SANK-toom"), making the terms' pronunciations universally understandable. That said, since I obviously don't have the same sensibility as a native English speaker on this point, I fear that my transcriptions may lack clarity or accuracy: a native speaker would probably be best suited to deal with this aspect.

Anyway, if you are in a pinch, my final advice is to do as Dragoslav said: go for what seems good to you!

[Dragoslav]

The original is written with casual phonetic representation. For example, "Rindath" is indicated as "rine-dasse", and "Saoghal-Dheir" as "sa-o-gale dé-ire". And to tell the truth, phonetic transcription has never been my forte: I'm much apter at absorbing vocabulary and making use of it! However, I'm disposed to support any efforts of transcription the best I can.

Thanks, Clovis, that's very interesting... Be warned, this is where I betray the fact that I am secretly a language nerd. Those pronunciations don't match what I would expect based on what I've learned of Gaelic pronunciation, even accounting for the fact that those phonetic pronunciations were (I assume) made for a French-speaking audience. For example, if you look at the guide I linked to above, the letters "th" always make a "h" sound, so "Rindath" would be pronounced as "Rine-dah" (or "reen-dah," for anglophones); it looks like in your guide it is pronounced with the "th" making an English "th" sound (as in the word "the") and then turned into a "ss" sound for the benefit of a francophone audience. Correct me if any of my assumptions are wrong!

The same goes for "Saoghal-Dheir," which by the guide I posted above would be pronounced as "See-gal yayr" in Irish Gaelic; an average English-speaker would probably read it "Sa-o-gal dayr," close to the pronunciation you provided.

Could you do me a favor and post the phonetic pronunciations (if available) for the words "Demorthen," "Mor Roimh," "Feond," and "Baldh-Ruoch?" I'm very interested now to see the provided pronunciations.

(Incidentally, truth be told, I had assumed that you were a native English speaker who was also fluent in French. I'm envious of your native-level fluency in another language!)

[Clovis]

Thanks, Clovis, that's very interesting... Be warned, this is where I betray the fact that I am secretly a language nerd.

Well, I personally am more of a vocabulary nerd, but there's nothing wrong with being a language nerd!

Those pronunciations don't match what I would expect based on what I've learned of Gaelic pronunciation, even accounting for the fact that those phonetic pronunciations were (I assume) made for a French-speaking audience. For example, if you look at the guide I linked to above, the letters "th" always make a "h" sound, so "Rindath" would be pronounced as "Rine-dah" (or "reen-dah," for anglophones); it looks like in your guide it is pronounced with the "th" making an English "th" sound (as in the word "the") and then turned into a "ss" sound for the benefit of a francophone audience. Correct me if any of my assumptions are wrong!

I know nothing (or close to nothing) about Gaelic pronunciation, so I won't contest your point of view regarding how the words should actually be uttered! In French, the indicated pronunciation is indeed "reen-dass".

The same goes for "Saoghal-Dheir," which by the guide I posted above would be pronounced as "See-gal yayr" in Irish Gaelic; an average English-speaker would probably read it "Sa-o-gal dayr," close to the pronunciation you provided.

We're getting back to my opinion about the "Just roll with it" thing: most of the phonemes used are quite unfamiliar to a French-speaking person, as they are to an English-speaking one, I think. As a consequence, the resulting pronunciation by a neophyte in Gaelic would be awkward at best, hence my stance on the subject. However, that's just my personal idea of the things; everyone is free to put as much effort as he wants into such or such aspect of the game.

Could you do me a favor and post the phonetic pronunciations (if available) for the words "Demorthen," "Mor Roimh," "Feond," and "Baldh-Ruoch?" I'm very interested now to see the provided pronunciations.

I see no problem with that, as long as you are duly grateful for all the efforts I am making for your sake!

Demorthèn --> "dé-mor-taine"
Mor Roimh --> N/A (since it's not part of the glossary)
Feond --> "fé-onde"
Baldh-Ruoch --> N/A (since it's not part of the glossary)

(Incidentally, truth be told, I had assumed that you were a native English speaker who was also fluent in French. I'm envious of your native-level fluency in another language!)

Oh wow, that's very flaterring of you... are you sure you're not just buttering me up?
Jokes aside, I do my best to be as proficient in the English language as possible, and although my mastery is still far from perfect and still suffers from the influence of French, it is good to see that I am a convincing English speaker.

[Dragoslav]

Oh wow, that's very flaterring of you... are you sure you're not just buttering me up?
Jokes aside, I do my best to be as proficient in the English language as possible, and although my mastery is still far from perfect and still suffers from the influence of French, it is good to see that I am a convincing English speaker.

I used to want to be a translator, myself, and I've been struggling for years to get to an advanced competency with a second language, so I couldn't help but admire the excellent translation of Book 1. But I've inflated your ego enough by now.

Back on topic, it looks like I don't have to worry about getting the pronunciation "right," which is relieving. Nevertheless, I'll continue to try pronouncing everything in an approximation of Irish-Gaelic, Scottish-Gaelic, and Welsh, just because I'm a linguophile and think that it will improve the atmosphere by making the world more authentic.