Les Ombres d'Esteren - Forum officiel

Just had a few questions left from my first reading of the book Universe.

Demorthen.

1) Overall do the Demorthen communicate with spirits through their arts/Ogham or from meditation or ritual?

2) Would they aid a C'Maogh/Spirit in dealing with their personal wants (the spirits wants) or strictly in balancing the natural order (example: work towards stopping a local group of magientists from polluting a water C'Maogh's home.

3) How are new Ogham stones created? Would these be made personally? would they require bonding to a new spirit? Can they only be crafted by wise Demorthen of higher ranks?

4) Would they possess the capability to create magic items? (Charmed weapons/Clothing/Armour/Consumables)

5) What do the Morcail particularly do (I understand about serving their own ends?) Is there any more information outside of the prologue and universe books detailing their particular brands of arts? How might they coerce or cause pain to a spirit to enlist their aid. (For any creators of Esteren's Ghost Stories will anything like these be detailed?)



Magientists

1) So what is Magience?

So far it looks to be like it's the development of a combustion engine, the use of oil (flux) and the creation of automotive motion and electricity.

2) Is Flux just Oil (with a sped up creation/processing element) or is there actually Magic in Flux?

3) Could Flux be used to create ballistic or energy based weaponry?

4) What seperates Magience from other sciences in Esteren? (Physics, Biology/Medicine, Chemistry)

5) How extensive is the use of Steam Power? (would imagine prevalent in Osta-Baille)


I ask these questions from a desire to remain true to the lore being established, yes I understand A GL may adapt the world to suit his needs but I'm seeking more answers relevant to -this world- Esteren.

wtnbrad a écrit :1) Overall do the Demorthen communicate with spirits through their arts/Ogham or from meditation or ritual?

They communicate with spirits through the "Sigil Rann", while using Ogham, and it's more a short-ritual, which can take seconds or minutes to be cast. However, I don't remember if it's clearly specified whether it's spelled or not.

wtnbrad a écrit :2) Would they aid a C'Maogh/Spirit in dealing with their personal wants (the spirits wants) or strictly in balancing the natural order (example: work towards stopping a local group of magientists from polluting a water C'Maogh's home.

It can depends of how the Demorthèn felt the C'Maogh's will, if it's real or not, and this depends of the GM's opinion ! Therefore I guess a Demorthèn can do so, especially if it's to preserve the natural environment.

wtnbrad a écrit :3) How are new Ogham stones created? Would these be made personally? would they require bonding to a new spirit? Can they only be crafted by wise Demorthen of higher ranks?

I'm not sure, but I think the old Ogham-crafting art is named Lorn Rann, and it's been forgotten for decades, if not centuries. Maybe we can hope there'll be a clue in the Secrets book that will help GMs creating a good scenario about recovering this old art ! At least, just know that Ogham are not related to one spirit specificly, they're more related to one kind of perception of the environment, that's why you can have a Water Ogham, Lightning, Fire, but also Life, Poison, Food, Animals call, etc.

wtnbrad a écrit :4) Would they possess the capability to create magic items? (Charmed weapons/Clothing/Armour/Consumables)

In the core rules, Magic Items are "Power items", and Power items are created within a particular context : the owner or the crafter is animated by a really strong feeling and emotion, which allows him to put a piece of his personality in the item. It's like the sword of a King who lost it after his death, this sword can (and I say "CAN") be animated by a strong power, given by its previous owner, who tends to influence the new owner in good actions and loyalty, which can be hard for a thief for example, but it can also give him ancient tricks and thrust in battle.
But remember that Power items are really rare, and they usually do not look as if they were magic.
Anything can be a Power item, even a chisel !

wtnbrad a écrit :5) What do the Morcail particularly do (I understand about serving their own ends?) Is there any more information outside of the prologue and universe books detailing their particular brands of arts? How might they coerce or cause pain to a spirit to enlist their aid. (For any creators of Esteren's Ghost Stories will anything like these be detailed?)

Morcail are fallen Demorthèn, who use their wrath to control the C'Maoghs into accomplishing their own will (Morcail ones ). They often use specific Ogham for that, and they usually work alone, as Demorthèn community are likely to annihilate them, but you can find some castes of Morcail working together, but they're usually made by one leader controlling most actions, as Morcail are kind of selfish.
There's an official scenario for the "Shadows Brotherhood" program (here in France, sorry for that) who relates the old story of a Morcail, and whenever this scenario will be available for the public, you'll surely have more information about how they work !

wtnbrad a écrit :1) So what is Magience?
So far it looks to be like it's the development of a combustion engine, the use of oil (flux) and the creation of automotive motion and electricity.

Magience is the concept of using Flux to supply small machines called "Artifacts", including all what's related to Flux and Artifacts : extraction, research for new potential types of Flux, containment ; and for artifacts : creation, optimization, improvement, marketing, propagation through the world, research for fun and powerful artifacts, etc.

wtnbrad a écrit :2) Is Flux just Oil (with a sped up creation/processing element) or is there actually Magic in Flux?

If by "Oil" you mean "Liquid extracted from a bigger component", then you're partially right.
In fact, Flux is the substance contained in everything : living, vegetal or animal, and mineral, like rocks or sand. What Magientists do is simply creating extractors in which you put your material, and outside you have raw Flux, which have to be refined to be used. After refining, Flux is put in cartridges of multiple sizes, to use them in Artifacts.
Actually, there's no information about any form of Magic inside the Flux, it's presented as a component of anything, a piece of any type of matter, so I guess there is no Magic in this : if it's the essence of matter, it must be powerful to grow in differents aspects ! And so are the Artifacts using it
I'm sure the Secrets book will contain more information, but I'm afraid you'll have to wait a bit long...

wtnbrad a écrit :3) Could Flux be used to create ballistic or energy based weaponry?

Of course it can ! If you can create an Energy glove, you can for sure create rifles or canons ! But Tri-Kazel is not the place of global war, as the environment does not allow it (mountains, forests, etc.) , and Magientists would probably get more money by using artifacts to improve life everywhere like they did when rebuilding Bald-Ruoch and Osta-Baille.
Magientists are really people of "secrets", working on their own, and selling stuff to people without giving the recipes or techniques. They only teach it inside the Magience schools in Reizh

wtnbrad a écrit :4) What seperates Magience from other sciences in Esteren? (Physics, Biology/Medicine, Chemistry)

Magience is like particle physics, but with a bigger size. Physics study the way the world turns and works, Biology/medicine studies the way the living creatures and plants work, and Chemistry studies the way matter interacts. Magience can be a melt of all these kind of sciences, as it studies about how the world is made (and the answer can probably be "With Flux"), and how these essences interacts themselves and with other types of matter, living or not.

wtnbrad a écrit :5) How extensive is the use of Steam Power? (would imagine prevalent in Osta-Baille)

There's only one note about Steam in the Book 1 - Universe, and it's said that Steam consumes more energy than Flux for less power, giving the example of an experiment inside a Windmill. But it suggests that Steam have been discovered by Magientists, and they probably choose not to use it because of its energy cost.



I hope most of your questions have been answered !

Demorthen

1 That helps considering use of stones and sigil rann for communicating directly
2 more a story choice then but relevant depending on balance, beliefs and ways
3 ah Lorn Rann, forgot about that
4 And forgot about power items too D'oh
5 I hope that scenario does get released in Anglais, maybe next kickstarter they're something I wanted to look at in more detail are the Morcail (and about the potential of them using Necromancy)

Magience

1 Okay I guess I was trying to differentiate it between actual science and Magic as Science
2 Ok so Flux is simply put a multi-purpose powerful material which is -just there- until its tinkered with. So far my impressions have led me to feel it being Oil, Radio-active material and now a substance instilled with magic after starting to read the book 0 scenarios
3 and I realised I missed the entry about it in the core book... hope rules come along soon for their use within the system
4 Particle Physics and possibly Metaphysics rolled into one with a bit of temporal quantum mechanics, the more I've read about it in the book 0 scenarios the more I'm okay with it being both just a material and being infused with magical properties of possibly a lovecraftian nature (If it can do some of the things described in the scenario then very inclined to its magical properties)
5) ah yes the magientists did find it I remember now, and while not effective compared to flux I doubt they would dismiss it out of hand when the process of using steam is less complex evidently than the refining of Flux



Thankyou its been insightful to have another input to reinforce what I've been reading.

wtnbrad a écrit :5 I hope that scenario does get released in Anglais, maybe next kickstarter they're something I wanted to look at in more detail are the Morcail (and about the potential of them using Necromancy)

I think I've translated the said scenario but it's not in the actual projects to show it. I didn't write it, I just mastered it years ago, but in fact, I really don't know what we'll do with the "Shadows brotherhood" project, even if it's currently pointed in the planning ^^ Be sure that Nelhyann will post a note whenever there'll be news about this.

wtnbrad a écrit :2 Ok so Flux is simply put a multi-purpose powerful material which is -just there- until its tinkered with. So far my impressions have led me to feel it being Oil, Radio-active material and now a substance instilled with magic after starting to read the book 0 scenarios

wtnbrad a écrit :4 Particle Physics and possibly Metaphysics rolled into one with a bit of temporal quantum mechanics, the more I've read about it in the book 0 scenarios the more I'm okay with it being both just a material and being infused with magical properties of possibly a lovecraftian nature (If it can do some of the things described in the scenario then very inclined to its magical properties)

I personnally think that Flux is not really "magic", it's just like petrol we refine in fuel. Petrol is just present "naturally" in soils, as the Fossil Flux is, and the rest of the Flux has to be extracted from anything to become the "fuel" used by artifacts. For me, it's just fuel, nothing magic. But as I said, it's a personal opinion, and many members of the community can have another idea about it, and for sure, the Secrets book may say something else Feel free to make your own theory if you want !

wtnbrad a écrit :5) ah yes the magientists did find it I remember now, and while not effective compared to flux I doubt they would dismiss it out of hand when the process of using steam is less complex evidently than the refining of Flux

Using steam is less complex, this is obvious, but it seems that Flux has a real power and performance steam does not have. Just take the example of a Nebular : it is supplied by any kind of Flux, and its duration is about 12 hours. Do you think that a classic lighter in our world would last 12 hours if you light it constantly ? And note that they probably have kind of the same container size for the fuel supplying it. It's really a demonstration of how powerful is the Flux, and the reason they're using it instead of steam or coal energy in general (in these ages, only coal can be used).

If I might put forth my personal genre-savvy-ness and experiences running the game:

Magience is like science in the same way that SCIENCE! is like science. Its super-science.

It depends on what kind of game you run; since the players already understand the basic tenants of science in the real world, adding this extra layer of obfuscation in-game helps put them in the mindset of "this is confusing strange secret stuff that I don't get at all." So you could have magience be mostly real science and engineering with a little weirdness. Or you could have it be super-science. In-game, magience is explained as "working from understood physical principles, it uses Flux as a fuel source to bend or break laws and limitations." Flux is a mc-guffin. It's Element Zero. Its Philosopher's Stone (Fullmetal Alchemist in paritcular is relevant to this topic). Its glowy-blue Whale Oil.

Flux (especially mineral and vegetal) functions basically like oil, yes, but thematically, its obtained by breaking down matter and extracting some fundamental force from it; its like rendering down "spirit." You can tell because you get more flux from interesting or significant things, and you get shit-tonnes of organic flux out of, say, rendering down a living thing. As opposed to a dead thing. In terms of their physical components, a living creature and a recently-dead creature are almost exactly the same; since flux extraction treats them differently, that means that there's something spooky going on.

Also note that Shards of Light are rich in Flux, and that fossil flux is an incredibly potent mutagen of the giant-ants variety, and the druids seem to know something about it, or at least know that its bad. I personally suspect its linked with Feondas somehow; its mentioned that magientists think that feondas are just mundane creatures that have been hideously mutated. They also think that Druid rituals and miracles of the temple are people manipulating flux in its raw form; so it can probably be made to respond to human thought/will. (Them thinking this doesn't make it so. They're stubbornly interpreting spooky stuff from within their own worldview, despite the facts not really adding up.)

Regardless, Flux isn't just super-oil; its somewhat supernatural. Its still worked with (probably) like any other science, because any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science.

It fits with the captain-planet-y, Princess-Mononoke-y themes that these guys render down the essential spirit of plants, minerals and creatures, generating useless slag and removing them from the natural cycle, in order to operate their shock-gauntlets, elevators, and weaponized circular saws (lets be honest here, EVERY magientist player buys themselves a circular saw artifact)

Think of it this way: Flux lets you ignore the details and complications that get in the way of awesome stuff. If you want to attatch a cool semi-steampunk robot limb to a guy, you've got SO many obstacles, even if you have a functioning robot arm; infection at the amputation site, linking it up with his nervous system to both take instructions and provide tactile feedback, all that stuff. Flux just makes those problems...go away. provided you keep on injecting organic Flux into the guy.

A very interesting and comprehensive perspective on the subject! You've very astutely summed up the tenants of Magience, and among the references you've quoted, there are some of Shadows of Esteren's most prominent sources of inspiration.

However, as for how exactly these elements are connected to the foundations of the Esteren mythos, it will have to remain a mystery for now! However, you are right to presume that Flux is more than a simple source energy ("Well, duh." I know, but still). There is indeed something pure and primeval about it, a theme on which Game Leaders can build many thrilling, horrific adventures.

And yes, on a meta-gaming scale, Flux is indeed a simple, effective shortcut for sciencey-wimey stuff. Why do Magientist Artifacts work? Because there's Flux involved. No need to go into complicated scientific stuff... this way, you can focus on the more symbolic aspects of human progress and inventions.

Thank you for sharing your experience and ideas on the subject. I hope we'll get to see more of you on the forums!

Ahriman42 a écrit :(lets be honest here, EVERY magientist player buys themselves a circular saw artifact)

Busted!

I personally like to view Magience like alchemy. Alchemy was treated as a science, but yet there is a mystical and magical nature to it.

Regarding Magience 3) There are Fervhen's Rifles mentioned in Book 1 Universe on page 165. I understood them as some kind of guns.