Nonlethal Combat

[Valenae]

In game often heroes wants to take prisoners. Is there any rules about it in game? What rules use you in this situations?

[iznurda]

Hi !

Maybe you could find some ideas here

iz

[Clovis]

Actually, since this discussion, I've given more thought to the question, and I must say Nonlethal Combat is actually a difficult notion to handle. Indeed, no matter how you fight, you'll always be at risk of severely injuring your opponents by breaking their bones, tearing their muscles, causing internal bleeding, etc. It's not because you "only" use your fists, a club or a staff that you'll be able to just knock them out.

Games like D&D or WoD have given us the habit of thinking in terms of Lethal and Nonlethal (or "Bashing" for WoD) damage. However, the subject is not that simple: popular imagery dictates that if you hit someone on the head with a big rock or a frypan, you'll be able to incapacitate this person without serious consequences, but reality is much different. A person who had been knocked out may wake up with brain damage... or not wake up at all, actually.

Therefore, I tend to consider that when a character has been disabled, it does not mean that the person has been knocked out cold; rather, it means that he or she is so exhausted or in so much pain that he or she is no longer able to do something significant.


Just my two ember Daols on the subject. Feel free to provide your opinion, since I've been thinking about this for quite a while without being able to reach a satisfying conclusion.

[Valenae]

The main problem is that in rules "as is" any combat will be lethal, that is not true.
I use that rule in definitly unlethal combat opponents roll oppose close combat and who get most - wins (subdue opponent). Opponent receive wounds equal to margin.

Also in movies we see as combatant subdue his opponent with one blow.

[tamsyn]

We had this in a game last time. I just ruled that if be hit and did a fair whack of damage and said he was knocking someone out it was fine as it was an npc.

[Clovis]

Also in movies we see as combatant subdue his opponent with one blow.

Yeah, but they're movies; one of the basic principles is that they're not realistic, isn't it?

We had this in a game last time. I just ruled that if be hit and did a fair whack of damage and said he was knocking someone out it was fine as it was an npc.

That's a possible solution. The problem I see here is the "NPC" thing: in Esteren, NPCs are supposed to be on a par with PCs; they're no less (or more) powerful or fated to succeed. For a PC, being able to knock out an NPC easily is all fun and games, but what if the opposite happens and one of the PCs is suddenly incapacitated by an NPC, without the PC getting much of a chance to react (much as the NPC you mentioned did, I presume)?

The PC is probably going to complain that it's unfair, but didn't the same thing happen to an NPC?

[Dragoslav]

If it's some villager that the PCs are roughing up or trying to keep quiet for some reason, I'd go with just being able to whack him and knock him out, too. This is assuming that the PC trying to knock him out is the party fighter or other tough guy; if the party bookworm tries doing it, he's probably just going to give the guy a bloody nose and piss him off.

One could argue the fine points of at what power level a PC becomes like John McLane from Die Hard, knocking people out with a well-placed blow to the head*, but I'd allow it under two conditions:

1) There is a significant difference in power level between the attacker and the victim (e.g. a PC's Fighter vs. a villager; or a powerful NPC villain vs. a PC's Fighter); and
2) The victim is unable to defend himself (e.g. the villager is unarmed and caught off guard; or the PC is bound up in rope [like during an interrogation])



*Full disclosure: I don't know whether John McLane ever actually does that in any of the Die Hard movies.

[Clovis]

1) There is a significant difference in power level between the attacker and the victim (e.g. a PC's Fighter vs. a villager; or a powerful NPC villain vs. a PC's Fighter); and
2) The victim is unable to defend himself (e.g. the villager is unarmed and caught off guard; or the PC is bound up in rope [like during an interrogation])

Yeah, that makes sense: after all, if it's just some poor sod who just has basic training in fighting, the guy's not likely to be able to do much. However, in a situation where the Character is actually someone who stands a chance, then the attacker is going to have to do things the rough way and to beat the other dude into submission!

*Full disclosure: I don't know whether John McLane ever actually does that in any of the Die Hard movies.

Meh, it's a sure bet he does it at some point during the movie... and if he does not, well, just take another Bruce Willis film!

[Ovid]

Clovis is right about just how dangerous "nonlethal" combat can be, and it's actually really difficult to knock someone out deliberately. A more relevant distinction is armed/unarmed, where the latter has a much higher risk of the attacker injuring himself, even on a successful attack.

[Clovis]

You mean like getting bruises or broken bones? That makes sense, but I think that would be getting a little too much in-detail, particularly for a system like Esteren's that does not focus too much on stats and technical data. It's a very good possibility if a Critical Failure arises though!