Knocking Out the Opponent

[JohnK]

Hullo, folks,

I started running my Friday night game of Shadows of Esteren this week, and while doing a sample of combat, came across a situation where one of the players wanted to knock his opponent out.

I improvised a rule very quickly for this, deeming any attack that inflicted damage equal to 1/2 Stamina, rounded down, knocked the target out for an amount of time equal to the difference between the 1/2 Stamina and the damage rolled.

However, I was wondering if there's an official rule for knocking someone out. Anyone?

[iznurda]

Hi !

I consider myself that a hit >= stamina is a knock out if it was the intention. Damages are non lethal and the victim do a vigor test each minute against the initial shock (the amount of damages receave). A major success and the character wake up with no maluses, otherwise with a -1 maluses during the recovery of the non lethal damages (1 per min after the wake-up).

But I tend to consider that a successfully attack with the intention of knock-out in a favorable context grant the result, during a backstab for example. The situation make faith.

iz

[JohnK]

Hullo, Iz,

I consider myself that a hit >= stamina is a knock out if it was the intention. Damages are non lethal and the victim do a vigor test each minute against the initial shock (the amount of damages receave). A major success and the character wake up with no maluses, otherwise with a -1 maluses during the recovery of the non lethal damages (1 per min after the wake-up).

I really like this idea, but I don't see how a character can knock another one out using the Stamina at full basis. A normal character has around 10 Stamina, and that means another character would have to hit for 10 damage points. That's a lot. Does the knockout work all that often?

But I tend to consider that a successfully attack with the intention of knock-out in a favorable context grant the result, during a backstab for example. The situation make faith.

So, what you're saying is that the knockout is more of a roleplaying and trust sort of deal? Hmm, I suppose that can work, but we'll see what others have to offer in this regard.

In the meantime, thanks for your advice on this one.

[Clovis]

I'd say iznurda's idea makes sense: when you think about it, it is actually pretty easy to inflict 10 Damage points to an enemy, and I'll prove it with two examples:

Example 1:

- On one side, we have Joe, who's a hardened mercenary. He has 5 in Combativeness, and his Close Combat rating is 5 (with a Discipline in Bludgeoning weapons at 8). He usually fights with a hefty mace (Damage 2).
Therefore, Joe is a very good fighter who is decently armed, but not exceptionally so.

- On the other side, we have Jim, a regular guy, with regular abilities. Let's assume he has a Defense of 11, which is the average rating.

When we compare Joe's basic Attack rating (13) to Jim's Defense (11), we can see that Joe only needs to roll a 6 to reach a margin of 8 against Jim's Defense... when you add the mace's Damage, it gives a total of 10 Damage points. Enough to knock Jim out!

Example 2:

- Bob is a sneaky robber. Fighting is not his forte (2 in Combativeness and 5 in Close Combat, for a total of 7), but he is very stealthy (5 in Empathy and 5 in Stealth (Discipline: Furtiveness at 7), for a total of 10 (and 12 in Furtiveness)). He is armed with a simple sap (Damage 1). Also, he has mastered the Fighting Art of the Sneak Attack.

Now, let's say Bob is sneaking up on Jim (yeah, Jim shouldn’t have taken that "Evil Eye" Disadvantage; all kinds of bad stuff happen to him for no reason), and manages to do so unnoticed, which is easily possible unless Bob rolls particularly poorly. With a Sneak Attack, and a 6, he gets a total Damage of 6 (the result of the roll) + 2 (Combativeness) + 5 (Close Combat) + 5 (Sneak Attack) + 1 (Sap) = 19. Measured against Jim's Defense, this gives a total of 8, which is not enough.

However, we can also assume that Bob is using the Offensive attitude (which makes sense, since his purpose is to knock Jim out without leaving him any opportunity to react). Let's say he has 3 in Creativity, which gives +2 to his Attack rating... for a total rating of 10!


As you can see, reaching a total of 10 Damage points inflicted is by no means impossible or even unlikely... provided you have the skills required for it of course, but then again, knocking someone out is not that easy. You can't just do it by haphazardly bashing someone's skull with a club: it is very likely that you will hurt your opponent, but not enough to make him lose consciousness.

That's my opinion on the subject. I hope it makes sense to you!

[JohnK]

Hullo, Clovis,

I'd say iznurda's idea makes sense: when you think about it, it is actually pretty easy to inflict 10 Damage points to an enemy, and I'll prove it with two examples:

<snippage of the two examples>

Thanks for posting the two examples, Clovis, but I have a question for you... Do you consider the two characters that you gave here for the example, Jim and Bob, to be typical player characters?

As you can see, reaching a total of 10 Damage points inflicted is by no means impossible or even unlikely... provided you have the skills required for it of course, but then again, knocking someone out is not that easy. You can't just do it by haphazardly bashing someone's skull with a club: it is very likely that you will hurt your opponent, but not enough to make him lose consciousness.

That's my opinion on the subject. I hope it makes sense to you!

I'm glad that you qualified matters about the possibility/impossibility of being knocked out, as in a realistic, somewhat gritty system, it should be harder to do. And yes, it makes sense to me, too. It's all a matter of how you phrase things, but I'm sure you know that, too. Would you give a bonus to certain weapons - clubs, coshes, staves, etc. - that make it easier to do that kind of blow?

[Ovid]

I like iznurda's ideas a lot. To take account of the PC using the butt of the sword instead of the blade, I'd rule that the use of any weapon counts as a club/cosh. They'd do either 1 damage (for smaller, lighter weapons) or 2 (for heavier ones). I also think that someone using a two-handed maul should have to pull their hit in order to avoid doing lethal damage (so max 2 damage, rather than the usual 4!).

In parallel with the overdose rules, perhaps a natural 10 on the roll means the PC accidentally does full lethal damage.

[iznurda]

In parallel with the overdose rules, perhaps a natural 10 on the roll means the PC accidentally does full lethal damage.

Whaooo. I like that ! Steal it

iz

[Clovis]

Would you give a bonus to certain weapons - clubs, coshes, staves, etc. - that make it easier to do that kind of blow?

Ovid sorta gave an answer to your question; rather than giving bonuses to specific types of weapons, you should simply restrict the possible weapons with which to knock out your opponent, as common sense dictates. Therefore, spears and swords are out of the question... unless you use the butt of the spear (for which I'd attribute a Damage of 1, since it's not primarily made for hitting people) or the pommel of your sword (a Damage rating of 2, as Ovid proposed, seems good to me).

Is a blackjack or a truncheon better than a metal mace for knocking out someone? Probably, since such weapons are made to deliver stunning blows rather than lethal ones. However, since Esteren's system is not made to go into that much detail, I think the question is irrelevant: just stick to the fact that you can only use bludgeoning weapons to knock someone out, and you should be good to go.

[JohnK]

Hullo, Clovis,

Would you give a bonus to certain weapons - clubs, coshes, staves, etc. - that make it easier to do that kind of blow?

Ovid sorta gave an answer to your question; rather than giving bonuses to specific types of weapons, you should simply restrict the possible weapons with which to knock out your opponent, as common sense dictates. Therefore, spears and swords are out of the question... unless you use the butt of the spear (for which I'd attribute a Damage of 1, since it's not primarily made for hitting people) or the pommel of your sword (a Damage rating of 2, as Ovid proposed, seems good to me).

Yes, that makes sense to me as well, although I assume one is giving the pommel of the sword a Damage rating of 2 here because of the weight of the weapon. That sounds right to me. The restriction of weapons that can allow a character to knock out an opponent is, once more, common sense to me. As you said.

Is a blackjack or a truncheon better than a metal mace for knocking out someone? Probably, since such weapons are made to deliver stunning blows rather than lethal ones. However, since Esteren's system is not made to go into that much detail, I think the question is irrelevant: just stick to the fact that you can only use bludgeoning weapons to knock someone out, and you should be good to go.

Done, and done.

[Valenae]

I decide to slightly alter that rules for my game.

1) Player makes decision to "take opponent alive" at any part of combat.
2) To knock out damage must beat stamina of opponent and his remaining health. If success opponent knock out. If failure health are reduced. If opponent is not dies attack can be repeated.

It rule adds chance to unintentionally kills enemy while trying to take him alive.

Also I'm very interested what rules authors use to knocking out opponents? The situation is very common for any rpg.