Fist and Kick Damage

[JohnK]

Hullo, folks,

Dragoslav brought up this question, and I thought that I'd post it here.

Similarly, I've been wondering what the damage of just a character's fists would be. If you go with the lowest Damage rating, 1, that's still as high as the damage of a dagger, so you might as well just use your fists in that case.

That is an excellent question. I would argue that a character's fists would do Damage 1, and that a character's Kick might do the same, or possibly Damage 0.

See what folks have to say on this.

[Iris]

Hello,

I would use damage 0 in most of the situation and 1 or 2, or even more, for someone who become specialist :

Combat 1 to 5 : damage 0 without weapon
Combat 6 to 9 : damage 1 ______________
Combat 10 to 12 : damage 2____________
Combat 13 to 15 : damage 3 ____________

... but the real question is : who will take a so long time to learn this discipline when he can use a sword ? ....

Another solution : fight without weapon becomes a martial art, cost 20 experience points to be learnt, and then you can do damage 1 without weapon...


(not sure to be very understandable The dictionnary is in another room and I'm a bit lazy this evening ...)

[iznurda]

Hi !

I use damage 0 without weapon. You can immobilize the opponent with a combat test in opposition (or use a discipline like wrestling if you want/have one). With a success of 10 or more the taking is assured, otherwise you have to start the next round.
In a wrestling fight you need 3 success to win.

With an art maybe you can use a +1 damage.

My 2 daols,

iz

[JohnK]

Salut, Iris,

Hello,

I would use damage 0 in most of the situation and 1 or 2, or even more, for someone who become specialist :

Combat 1 to 5 : damage 0 without weapon
Combat 6 to 9 : damage 1 ______________
Combat 10 to 12 : damage 2____________
Combat 13 to 15 : damage 3 ____________

Hmm, that actually makes sense to me. A character with the Close Combat Domain and the Discipline Unarmed Combat would work this way very nicely. I like it!

... but the real question is : who will take a so long time to learn this discipline when he can use a sword ? ....

Well, in theory, you really shouldn't be using a sword in a bar brawl, should you?

Another solution : fight without weapon becomes a martial art, cost 20 experience points to be learnt, and then you can do damage 1 without weapon...

Too be honest, I'm not fond of this solution simply because I really don't think that martial arts belongs in the game, because soon players will want to know about the Tri-Kazelian martial arts! Now you could add something along these lines as a Fighting Art, but I'm not sure whether this is the way to go.

(not sure to be very understandable The dictionnary is in another room and I'm a bit lazy this evening ...)

You were pretty understandable, Iris. I know a lot of people who would have used Google or Reverso translate for this. Your English is pretty good, dictionary or no dictionary.

[JohnK]

Hullo, Iz,

Hi !

I use damage 0 without weapon. You can immobilize the opponent with a combat test in opposition (or use a discipline like wrestling if you want/have one). With a success of 10 or more the taking is assured, otherwise you have to start the next round.
In a wrestling fight you need 3 success to win.

With an art maybe you can use a +1 damage.

That's also a pretty good solution, though I think that I like Iris's better.

My 2 daols,

Good daols, Iz. Are they Azure or Frost?

[Clovis]

As for me, I'd stick with 0 Damage, no matter the level in the Discipline. After all, it stands to reason that you're always going to do more damage with one foot of coldly efficient steel than with your meaty fists. Esteren has a realistic world after all, with no Kung-fu masters, so fist-fighting should remain something that is always less efficient than using a weapon... unless you're using a really inefficient weapon, like a broom.

However, should you want to give more edge to specialists in unarmed combat, you can implement rules such as the ones Iris and iznurda mentioned. It is your Esteren after all!

[JohnK]

Hullo, Clovis,

As for me, I'd stick with 0 Damage, no matter the level in the Discipline. After all, it stands to reason that you're always going to do more damage with one foot of coldly efficient steel than with your meaty fists. Esteren has a realistic world after all, with no Kung-fu masters, so fist-fighting should remain something that is always less efficient than using a weapon... unless you're using a really inefficient weapon, like a broom.

You make a good argument here for this approach, Clovis, so there's something to this. but you make it sound here as if no one ever engages in fisticuffs and the like, which I find hard to believe. A physical weapon (even a broom!) always gives an advantage in a fight (unless one is an expert at unarmed combat), but since there's no indication of there being martial art styles in Tri-Kazel, it's moot talking about their merits.

However, should you want to give more edge to specialists in unarmed combat, you can implement rules such as the ones Iris and iznurda mentioned. It is your Esteren after all!

Exactly the point, mon ami. That said, the ones Iris suggested appeal to me simply because as someone gets better with the Unarmed Combat Discipline, the damage should go up a bit. I'm not sure I'll use them, but they're certainly an option. As are Iz's of course.

[Clovis]

you make it sound here as if no one ever engages in fisticuffs and the like, which I find hard to believe.

Nah, of course I did not mean that! On the opposite, it would make sense that only the most serious combats should involve weapons: a tavern brawl is all fun and games until someone suddenly draws a dagger, at which point things become grim since people are really at risk of being killed, instead of just pummeled into submission.

That's why I wanted to stress the difference on a statistical level between fighting with and without a weapon.

[JohnK]

Hullo, Clovis,

you make it sound here as if no one ever engages in fisticuffs and the like, which I find hard to believe.

Nah, of course I did not mean that! On the opposite, it would make sense that only the most serious combats should involve weapons: a tavern brawl is all fun and games until someone suddenly draws a dagger, at which point things become grim since people are really at risk of being killed, instead of just pummeled into submission.

That's why I wanted to stress the difference on a statistical level between fighting with and without a weapon.

I agree with you in terms of tavern brawls becoming serious when someone draws a dagger or, Gods forbid, a sword. At that point, the tavern brawl has degenerated into something completely different, and most of the patrons will likely run for the doors! The use of actual weapons unbalances any fight if a character is unarmed, unless they are really a master at it, but since I don't really see martial arts existing in this world (well, maybe on the Continent), to me that's not a factor.

Besides, players like fighting with weapons, not with bare hands and feet!

But you raise an interesting point: From a statistical point of view, is there much difference between the amounts of damage that weapons do, given that nothing seems to do more than, what? 4 or so damage?

[Ovid]

I think punches and kicks should do a flat 1 point of damage, i.e. if you hit, you do 1 point with no modification for how much you hit by.

The only exception would be if you have levels in the Unarmed Fighting Discipline, in which case you can do up to another point for every level you have in that.

So, if I beat someone's Defense by 3 with a longsword, I do 6 damage before Protection.

If I do that with my fist, I only do 1 damage before Protection, because the success margin isn't counted.

If I do that with 2 levels in Unarmed Combat, I do 3 damage before Protection, because only 2 of the success margin is counted. (If, on the other hand, I'd only beaten the Defense by 1, I'd only do 2 Damage despite my higher Discipline: the blow just didn't land cleanly enough.)

That should allow someone to do damage with their fists, while keeping weapons much more dangerous.

(I'd also give an unarmed character -5 Defense against an armed one: he has to rely purely on his Ways. In addition, he should take damage from an armed opponent successfully using Parry: it should be a really, really bad idea to try to punch someone who has a sword.)