Languages on the Tri-Kazel Peninsula

[JohnK]

Hullo, Iz,

I decided to move the question and discussion about languages over to this separate thread, but am not sure whether it should be in the game system section or the game world forum.

Some month ago we had a discussion about languages (here in french). Here is my resume and conception :
The simple way :

• The languages actually used in peninsula are :
• Tarish
• continental : come with Jamian people and magientists.
• osag : used by osag people.
• anciant language : used by demorthèns and osags.

Yes, I read the original thread in the French side of the forums, but it made my head hurt a bit!

I my mind it's a bit more complicated : originally was the ancient language, a language of power, used by demorthèns in their arts. People spoke creag (the name of peninsula before the three kingdoms), an usual version without power of the anciant language but very similar.

Would it be possible to still find places and enclaves of people that still retain the Creag tongue?

After Aergewin the use of the ancient language decreases, and his mastery. Creag evolves. With the 3 immigrations (tarish people, Jamian's fellowers and magientists) creag blended with tarish and continental language to evolve in tri-kazelian, the actual common languages.

Ah, okay... The evolution of Creag tongue into modern Tri-Kazelian makes a lot of sense. However, what about a separate tongue that the Magientists use among themselves? Common sense that they would have a language that would be based on technical aspects and the like. Does the Continental language become that language, or would the Magientists have a separate language, perhaps even a dialect of the Continental?

• So the uses of languages are :
• Tarish language : only used by tarish people. They always try to preserve their culture but they increasingly sedentary. With time tri-kazell will assimilate all of them. No writing form known. Tarish's sounds and rhythms are very different from the tri-kazelian.
• Temple's language : a liturgic version of the continental language. Used in religious literature and linked to the cult. Writre and speak in Gwidre and in the Temple faction.
• Continental language : only used by academics and magientists. Majoritary in Reizh. Writing and speaking in academics, magientist faction and the old continental nobility.
• tri-kazelian : the common language. Used in all tri-kazell (the default language). Writing form. All the three kingdoms have their own variation of the tri-kazelian (dialects, accents, expressions, etc.)
• osag : the natural evolution of the creag without assimilation of tarish and continental terms. A primary form of creag is used during celebrations and protocol. It's why we say they use ancient language. It's wrong but it's hard to make a distinction. Exist an oghamic writing form.
• the ancient langage : used by demorthèn with sigil rann and liadh. Exist a wrote form (lorn rann) in oghams.

I like this list. Consider this whole post stolen and printed up for my game.

The languages discipline now. Myself I estimate a PJ with 0 in erudition as analphabetic. With 5 he can speak, wrote and read with ease. Discipline are :

• knowledge in other language. For example a magientist with 5 in erudition and 5 in continental can speak, write and read both of them.
• with more than 5 in a language we arrive in the academic sphere : literary culture, linguistic, local variations.

Ah, this is excellent, Iz, and makes perfect sense to me from my study of linguistics when I was in college and somewhat younger. Erudition of 5 would be reasonable in allowing speaking, reading, and writing, and I would suggest that this would imply a character speaks, reads, and writes his native language. Hmmm, would characters have Tri-Kazelian as their native language? Or would it be the language spoken in their home country?

What about the tri-kazelian in that case ? Well it's probably the PJ's natural language. With 5 in tri-kazelian he know all the variation used in the two other kingdom. Example : a bard from taol-kaer with 3 in tri-kazelian can speak like a reizhian and know some idioms from Gwidre.

So are you saying that the default language should be Tri-Kazelian, rather than speaking the tongue of Gwidre or the tongue of Taol-Kaer, or that of Reizh? This is something I've been wondering about, as I think language and communication in Shadows of Esteren is quite important.

[iznurda]

Hi !

The first thread was in secret section because we made speculations between linguistic and the secrets but we can just speak about actual language. Because we deals also with discipline the game system is good too. Hard to classifiate.

Now the discussion.

Would it be possible to still find places and enclaves of people that still retain the Creag tongue?

Yeah, in lands of Dèas. Has I say osag is an evolution about creag et for me creag is still their ceremonial and of protocol (councils clans, etc.) unusual, however, since only certain social classes employs.
There are still exist osag enclaves in the rest of peninsula but because of proximity they speak more tri-kazelian than osag.

However, what about a separate tongue that the Magientists use among themselves? Common sense that they would have a language that would be based on technical aspects and the like. Does the Continental language become that language, or would the Magientists have a separate language, perhaps even a dialect of the Continental?

In my mind creag and continent used originally the same tongue, with some locals variation. After Aegerwin creag was isolate and evolve on is side. So liturgic continental could be different from the magientist continental coming with immigration waves. It's why I separate them. The first should be more preserved and the second more recent, more technical, with lot's of new words.
Note: both can also be very different from current continental (but how known ? )

I like this list. Consider this whole post stolen and printed up for my game.

You're welcome. But don't be afraid to make it evolve with your own thoughts. I'll be glad to read and discuss about. It's my own vision until the publication of the secret book.

Hmmm, would characters have Tri-Kazelian as their native language? Or would it be the language spoken in their home country?

It's your own choice. I think every tri-kazelian know enough the tri-kazelian tongue to be understood. For example an osag with 0 in erudition speak osag as native and can speak in tri-kazelian with simple sentences. It's the same with a tarish. With a 5 in erudition he know well osag, can read in osag and creag (can understood a councils for example) and speak a good tri-kazelian.
I don't know if I'm clear enough.

So are you saying that the default language should be Tri-Kazelian, rather than speaking the tongue of Gwidre or the tongue of Taol-Kaer, or that of Reizh? This is something I've been wondering about, as I think language and communication in Shadows of Esteren is quite important.

Yeah. The three kingdoms speak the same tongue, but with local variations. It's like the english and the american, if you want. In Gwidre the liturgic continental is more integrated. In reizh it's the magientist's continental. But the greater part remains the same. The only specificity come with osag and tarish people. And demorthèn with the anciant language.

iz

[JohnK]

Hullo, Iz,

Hi !

The first thread was in secret section because we made speculations between linguistic and the secrets but we can just speak about actual language. Because we deals also with discipline the game system is good too. Hard to classifiate.

I can understand why the first thread was in the French Secrets section. I didn't put this thread into the English Secrets section because I felt that it was good for everyone to see. Like you said, hard to classify.

Would it be possible to still find places and enclaves of people that still retain the Creag tongue?

Yeah, in lands of Dèas. Has I say osag is an evolution about creag et for me creag is still their ceremonial and of protocol (councils clans, etc.) unusual, however, since only certain social classes employs.
There are still exist osag enclaves in the rest of peninsula but because of proximity they speak more tri-kazelian than osag.

I had figured that there would still be speakers and readers of Creag, and figured they would be in Dèas. It makes sense that only certain social classes would use that language. It's interesting that there are Osag enclaves in other parts of the peninsula, though I have to wonder why Osags would choose to live away from the lands of Dèas.

However, what about a separate tongue that the Magientists use among themselves? Common sense says that they would have a language that would be based on technical aspects and the like. Does the Continental language become that language, or would the Magientists have a separate language, perhaps even a dialect of the Continental?

In my mind creag and continent used originally the same tongue, with some locals variation. After Aegerwin creag was isolate and evolve on is side. So liturgic continental could be different from the magientist continental coming with immigration waves. It's why I separate them. The first should be more preserved and the second more recent, more technical, with lot's of new words.
Note: both can also be very different from current continental (but how known ? )

That makes sense to me. I think that I will have a separate Magientist tongue in my version of the game (need a better name for it than Magientist), though in some ways it's more of a technical jargon almost, but has evolved into a bit of a language itself.

I like this list. Consider this whole post stolen and printed up for my game.

You're welcome. But don't be afraid to make it evolve with your own thoughts. I'll be glad to read and discuss about. It's my own vision until the publication of the secret book.

That's what I had figured, to be honest. Still, I consider it a good starting point, so...

Hmmm, would characters have Tri-Kazelian as their native language? Or would it be the language spoken in their home country?

It's your own choice. I think every tri-kazelian know enough the tri-kazelian tongue to be understood. For example an osag with 0 in erudition speak osag as native and can speak in tri-kazelian with simple sentences. It's the same with a tarish. With a 5 in erudition he know well osag, can read in osag and creag (can understood a councils for example) and speak a good tri-kazelian.
I don't know if I'm clear enough.

Yep, you are definitely clear and making sense about this.

Basically, it comes down to the fact that everyone speaks Tri-Kazelian, regardless of where they come from, but the degree to which they speak it is based on Erudition Domain. Besides, since one cannot take Disciplines until the Domain is 5, one can't take other languages as Disciplines, so this default works quite nicely, je pense.

So are you saying that the default language should be Tri-Kazelian, rather than speaking the tongue of Gwidre or the tongue of Taol-Kaer, or that of Reizh? This is something I've been wondering about, as I think language and communication in Shadows of Esteren is quite important.

Yeah. The three kingdoms speak the same tongue, but with local variations. It's like the english and the american, if you want. In Gwidre the liturgic continental is more integrated. In reizh it's the magientist's continental. But the greater part remains the same. The only specificity come with osag and tarish people. And demorthèn with the anciant language.

Thank you for clarifying this, Iz, at least for me. I think that this material should definitely go into the Secrets Book (even if it's the English version, or will the French book cover some of the language questions as well?). And for now, this thread serves well as a guideline for using languages in the game.

[iznurda]

That makes sense to me. I think that I will have a separate Magientist tongue in my version of the game (need a better name for it than Magientist), though in some ways it's more of a technical jargon almost, but has evolved into a bit of a language itself.

yeah, you're the Game Master The forum is a place to share and confront different interpretations of the universe, in harmony. Nobody should not try to impose his vision and everyone should be free to pick up what he wants.

(...)though I have to wonder why Osags would choose to live away from the lands of Dèas.

Well osag's clans existed long before the three kingdoms. Assume that some have remained in place since that time is not difficult to conceive. In remote valleys or in more preservatives mountain clans for example. There is lot's of nuances in this universe but we deviate from the original subject =)

Glad I could help.

iz

[JohnK]

Hullo, Iz,

That makes sense to me. I think that I will have a separate Magientist tongue in my version of the game (need a better name for it than Magientist), though in some ways it's more of a technical jargon almost, but has evolved into a bit of a language itself.

yeah, you're the Game Master The forum is a place to share and confront different interpretations of the universe, in harmony. Nobody should not try to impose his vision and everyone should be free to pick up what he wants.

Definitely. One of the strengths of forums devoted to the game such as these is that everyone gets to share their visions of different aspects of the game, and other folks can pick and choose among what they like and what they don't. When it comes to interpretations, language in the game (or any rpg for that matter) is one of those subjects that comes up often.

(...)though I have to wonder why Osags would choose to live away from the lands of Dèas.

Well osag's clans existed long before the three kingdoms. Assume that some have remained in place since that time is not difficult to conceive. In remote valleys or in more preservatives mountain clans for example. There is lot's of nuances in this universe but we deviate from the original subject =)

This is certainly true. That said, it just seemed to me when reading the rulebook (and I've almost finished reading it for the second time) that the Osags would be found only in the lands of Dèas. When you put it this way, I definitely can see them having smaller enclaves in isolated places around the peninsula.

Glad I could help.

As always, mon ami, thank you.